ST202 BRAKE FADE ISSUES

[H_D]

Im using the single pot st202 calipers with 277mm disks (drilled and slotted) and am experiencing bad brake fade (worse than my stock brakes)

the brake system has been bled many times now using Toyota DOT 5.1 fluid I also have braided lines fitted.

The pads are standard EBC pads which came with the kit.

has anyone else had issues like this or can anyone shed some light on what the problem might be?

the pedal feels a bit spongy when the car is turned on but rock solid when its switched off.

[morgey]

What pads are they and how new?

When i first got my ebc yellow stuffs i did about 500 miles easy driving and even after that i had huge fading issues to the point i almost didnt stop for a junction or 2.

Turned out i still hadnt worn the bedding in material off.

[H_D]

they were fitted approx 6 months to 1500 miles ago.

they are just standard ebc replacement pads that came with kit off russ78

[morgey]

If you dont think the pads are at issue them maybe its master cylinder or booster problems?

[H_D]

im going to put some blueprint pads on today and test them out for a few hundred miles. hopefully this sorts it.

if there was an issue with the booster or master cylinder surely the pedal would be spongy when the car is turned off?

[morgey]

Booster id expect the pedal to be hard when the cars running.

Master id expect it to be spongey when off.

[5e colin]

probly the pads

as there was a kid on here a month ago with serouse fucked up ebc pads !!!!

after that as morgey said master or slave

[H_D]

Cheers guys. I will replace the pads today and report back after a few hundred miles which will probably take me 3-4 months lol

[5e colin]

pads are bedded in after 50km !!!!

[morgey]

Ebcs website states 200miles. I checked and gave mine a bit longer and they cleared up

[H_D]

The pads look fine.

As I said previously, when the car is running the pedal goes soft and you can hear a hissing type noise when the pedal pressed.

Edited September 5, 2016 by H_D

[gorganl2000]

HD --can you check to see if any of the pistons are sticking?---were the calipers refurbished before you installed them?

do you have any vacuum leaks from your servo? is the check valve to the servo working properly?---few YouTube vids can help you test it

i had similar spongy brake pedal issues when i installed my st202 twin pot caliper set up along with ebc pads on my ep91...i run braided lines like you ...i bedded in the ebc pads.....bleed the system many times, no calipers stuck, rebuilt 13/16 BMC with seal kit, but still had a spongy pedal feel when driving though the car was stopping fine,... as well, the brake pedal had much more travel than with the stock brake set up and too far down for my personal liking

do you have an ep91?---looks so from the pic.........can you check your BMC size?---is it 13/16?

i cured my troubles when i replaced my 13/16 BMC with a 7/8 BMC from an older ep82 (rebuilt with seal kit)...pedal was much firmer, less travel and spongy feeling gone....feels great now-----------on a side note i wonder if the 15/16 or 1" would give that HARD race feeling, but that just my own greed...lol

when i did my research, it seems ae111 with twin pots come with 7/8 BMC as standard...i have no idea what the st202 comes with, but i suspect 7/8 - 1" BMC

http://www.ukstarletowners.com/topic/102435-bigger-brake-master-cylinder/

the single pot st202 seems to have a 57mm piston...which equates to an area of 2553mm2 vs the stock piston which is about 51mm in diameter with an area of 2044mm2 approximately........it led my to believe more BMC volume is necessary to push the bigger set ups, especially as i have ABS as well

[RobSR]

Those EBC pads are shocking, nearly killed myself with them. Swap to a carbotech/carbon lorraine or DS2500 last resort in there and they'll be loads better.

[gorganl2000]

Those EBC pads are shocking, nearly killed myself with them. Swap to a carbotech/carbon lorraine or DS2500 last resort in there and they'll be loads better.

Edited September 5, 2016 by gorganl2000

[Ollieh17]

Rebuilt standard callipers, braided lines, toyota 5.1 bleed numerous times, wms 110% disks, EBC greenstuff pads. Brakes always felt awful, i reckon ebc are shit

[H_D]

I have fitted new pads and it still feels soft - where can I get a bigger BMC from?

[gorganl2000]

I have fitted new pads and it still feels soft - where can I get a bigger BMC from?

assuming that you have done all the other checks mentioned above....as i said before i got my 7/8 BMC from an older 1992 ep82 turbo model..,,its a direct bolt on.....some paseo have 7/8 BMC as well from my research,,

please double check that your current BMC is 13/16 first

[turbo-fever]

I have the same setup on my 82 and them pads are pretty poor had brake fade myself. Upgraded to ebc yellows and they have been round the nurburgring and still going takes a little while to bed them in though

[H_D]

My bmc is a 13/16

[gorganl2000]

the part number is 47201-16190 for the 7/8 BMC from the EP82

[H_D]

thanks for all of your input guys. Im going to change the BMC for a 7/8 and see if that cures it if not then im going to get some WMS brakes.

the part number is 47201-16190 for the 7/8 BMC from the EP82

Cheers mate. will give this a go if I can get hold of one

Edited September 8, 2016 by H_D

[Keri-WMS]

Yup, the Celica has some of the largest caliper piston area of any of the cars we deal with (in 1 pot, 2 pot and 4-pot, all the same), about 25% more than the Glanza (and even more if fitted to a 48mm piston base model), so you'll get a softer pedal and a big bias shift to the front which can make the front lock up before the rears have got near maximum braking force. A master cyl swap can make the pedal feel harder again but unless the front/rear bias in the master is more to the rear you're still left with the front bias issue.

The funny thing is it FEELS great with too much front bias as you can lock the front wheels really easily so you get the impression of powerful brakes.......but a standard car will out stop you (ignoring heat build up over multiple stops etc), especially in the wet where there's less weight shift to the front on the chassis during the braking event.

That's why we use the piston size we do on our kits, to keep the front / rear bias as close to OEM as possible or you actually get worse stopping distances.

[H_D]

Yup, the Celica has some of the largest caliper piston area of any of the cars we deal with (in 1 pot, 2 pot and 4-pot, all the same), about 25% more than the Glanza (and even more if fitted to a 48mm piston base model), so you'll get a softer pedal and a big bias shift to the front which can make the front lock up before the rears have got near maximum braking force. A master cyl swap can make the pedal feel harder again but unless the front/rear bias in the master is more to the rear you're still left with the front bias issue.

The funny thing is it FEELS great with too much front bias as you can lock the front wheels really easily so you get the impression of powerful brakes.......but a standard car will out stop you (ignoring heat build up over multiple stops etc), especially in the wet where there's less weight shift to the front on the chassis during the braking event.

That's why we use the piston size we do on our kits, to keep the front / rear bias as close to OEM as possible or you actually get worse stopping distances.

Thanks for the input Keri - I will be placing an order for some of your brakes in the very near future (end of this month )

[gorganl2000]

Yup, the Celica has some of the largest caliper piston area of any of the cars we deal with (in 1 pot, 2 pot and 4-pot, all the same), about 25% more than the Glanza (and even more if fitted to a 48mm piston base model), so you'll get a softer pedal and a big bias shift to the front which can make the front lock up before the rears have got near maximum braking force. A master cyl swap can make the pedal feel harder again but unless the front/rear bias in the master is more to the rear you're still left with the front bias issue.

The funny thing is it FEELS great with too much front bias as you can lock the front wheels really easily so you get the impression of powerful brakes.......but a standard car will out stop you (ignoring heat build up over multiple stops etc), especially in the wet where there's less weight shift to the front on the chassis during the braking event.

That's why we use the piston size we do on our kits, to keep the front / rear bias as close to OEM as possible or you actually get worse stopping distances.

very useful input there keri....always a wealth of knowledge as usual on these matter .. i think your upgraded braking system options that rival the st202 set up are great based on the reviews, well priced and i believe have the additional benefit of being noticeably lighter than the st202 set up which is about 10lbs heavier than the stock set up----yes, i weighed each part ...i was even tempted to buy one of your kits, but i think they were out of stock as you had some issues getting calipers iirc

nonetheless this has been my personal experience with my own car--ep91 abs...i've had absolutely no drama with the celica st202 twin pot upgrade..

before this on my standard upgraded set up i ran dot 4 brake fluid, hawk pads, braided brake lines, ep91 3G dimpled and slotted rotors and the car performed very well overall, but this set up experienced brake fade a bit faster than i liked when pushed for a bit.....honestly it worked well over the years till the car's power/mods started to exceed what the brakes could reasonably handle....so no fault of the stock (or stock upgraded) braking system as it was never intended for what we throw at them

so i recently upgraded to the celica st202 twin pots, dot 4 brake fluid, ebc red pads, 277mm astra discs, still using the same braided lines, 7/8 bmc to sort out the softer/longer pedal....and i really can't fault the system in terms of braking performance........there is no way my stock or stock uprated brakes come close to this set up or out braking it...no way at all under any circumstances...i don't have any issues with front brakes locking up and actually it stops very easily (even with far less activation of abs now as i purposely tried to activate abs a few times to see how it would work out)...the car feels very settled and smooth under braking

PS--i always keep my car's braking system (and car generally) in prestine condition...so all calipers were refurbished and serviced accordingly...i also run decent tires kumho ku36, coil-overs, rarb, etc....so i believe all of these things add up to create and enhance the overall "experience" .....i can not speak for this st202 set up on other people's cars, but mine has been good thus far

Edited September 8, 2016 by gorganl2000

[Amjad]

Great thread!

I was having soft pedal issues on same setup (albeit with DS2500 pads), and it turned out to be a faulty master cylinder.

Gonna check if my replacement is the larger BMC, if not I may try one out

Edited September 12, 2016 by Amjad