Plug n Play VS Emanage/piggyback VS Standalone ECUs

[gorganl2000]

this topics is started as a result of a spin-off discussion from another tread, however, this has long been a notable talking point over the years. i think its time to put the cards on the table and hopefully have a decent/civilized discussion about each and their place in the starlet community.

http://www.ukstarletowners.com/topic/105733-td05-16g-thinking-of-a-different-turbo/

popular plug n play on the 5e/4e scene include Jam, blitz, sard, mines, etc

popular piggybacks include emb, emu, dastek, etc

popular standalones include, apexi power fc, microtech, megasquirt, me221, autronic, link, haltech,,,,there have been a few high end spec ones that i know of.

now what are your experiences with these ecus on your set up?---what is your set up, how does your car drive, what kind of bhp did it make

have you upgraded from plug n play to piggyback/standalone, or from piggyback to standalones?....was it worth it?

do tuners in your area tune certain piggybacks or only certain standalones?

what type of features did your ecu have?...did you need to use any of them?...how did they work?

any information would be helpful

[gorganl2000]

found a few minutes, so let me start

i've had a Jam ecu in the past on an ep91 with ct9 set up...it took the usual few miles to settle down and worked flawlessly, even on our low octane gas. I would say it was a nice investment at the time (maybe 2006/2007) and cost around gbp525 if i remember correctly...we had no dyno at the time so i cant comment on figures. Another added bonus was that when driven sensibly, my per tank gas mileage increased, so it kind of payed for itself over the period. i had a friend who also ran a jam ecu on an ep82 with hybrid ct9...same experience as me

having said that, would i recommend one now....depends...if you can get one for a decent price (possibly below gbp300/350) and your set up it pretty simple and similar to the owner you are buying it from who has proven results, then OK....apart from that, i think they are way over priced for what they do compared to other options available today/2017. I mean you can get decent standalones for close to their price and even cheaper emu/emb. Yes, they will need to be tuned, BUT your tuned will be optimised for your specific set up instead of just relying on the general setting on whatever the plug n play ecu was initially set up for---which is usually a guest at best.

after i sold the Jam ecu, i installed emu on the same set up,,,and though i was not a believer before that point (like many i did not think the emu would make any difference at that time if i am honest lolol),,, yes, the emu tune was notably better than the jam ecu,,, just overall the car drove better in terms of response and smoothness

[Stu]

I'm definitely a stand alone advocate and prefer them over a stock ecu. Thats even on a stock engine setup purely for the ability to fine tune and get the most out of any setup plus the huge array of features that can be wired in. I prefer Link ecu's over just about everything except for the M1 series Motec. It takes time to tune any aftermarket ecu but once tuned correctly there is absolutely no reason why a car shouldn't start/idle/cruise exactly the same as on a stock ecu if not better.

[gorganl2000]

now here's my second tad bit-----emu/piggyback VS standalone....this is the area that usually results in a lot of talk

PS - my emanage package included emu, greddy boost solenoid/harness, afr harness, and controls ACIS manifold using one of the auxiliary outputs/maps....alll done up using a fields extension harness to make it "plug an play" technically speaking

i went on from my 5efte ct9 295cc injectors set up to running a 5efte TD04L set up with 360cc injectors in 2008/2009...i stuck with the emu as it worked quite good before, though i was advised that a standalone would have been better. At the time the apexi power fc was the craze and i think haltech and link as well were options. The car was retuned, and again it worked flawlessly, it drove smoothly, nice power band, no jerking, started easily, no power dips or hesitation when you turn on a/c, lights, wipers, etc.....everything works as if the car were stock, the way i wanted it.

now i will be honest, my tuner is not a fan of piggybacks and 100% prefers standalones like Stu does, but he tunes piggybacks and reflashes ecus when presented by the client----regardless, strict attention is paid to the ecu wiring harness and installation to make sure everything is correct before tuning commences.

as i said above, here's where things get a little difficult....would you change from this to a standalone if everything is working and you have no complaints? some claim more power can be made and a better tune can be had with a standalone. Firstly, i think if your car is tuned properly with either device (assuming the tuner is competent) that there will be very little if any gains to be made. Whichever you choose, its really up to the tuner to make the most of it, assuming that the other things are in order. Always talk to your tuner before hand to see what they are comfortable with as this will most likely impact the final outcome. if your tuner is not familiar with the software of the piggyback/standalone your car will not be optimised and the ecu will get the blame

Edited April 27, 2017 by gorganl2000

[gorganl2000]

I'm definitely a stand alone advocate and prefer them over a stock ecu. Thats even on a stock engine setup purely for the ability to fine tune and get the most out of any setup plus the huge array of features that can be wired in. I prefer Link ecu's over just about everything except for the M1 series Motec. It takes time to tune any aftermarket ecu but once tuned correctly there is absolutely no reason why a car shouldn't start/idle/cruise exactly the same as on a stock ecu if not better.

thanks for your input stu...as i know you have a lot of experience in the area

question to you---do you think for the average set up we find here that there is a significance difference to be made tuning wise between a piggyback and standalone? (4e/5e with hybrid ct9/td04/gt28/td05/vfxx running 295/330/360/460cc injectors, stock intake, stock ignition system, etc)

[AdamB]

It's not always down to "which is better" or "what will give me more power" etc.

99% of the time it's down to the persons budget, and if we're talking Starlets, the average person doesn't want to spend the best part of £3000 on a Motec ECU.

Along the same lines, for people that use their cars on the road, may not require the majority of features that a standalone ECU provides.

Will a standalone system provide a better calibration than that of a piggyback? Yes, it certainly will because it has better resolution and isn't "fooling" any signals etc.

[gorganl2000]

i understand that and agree fully AdamB

ecus like mote , gems, pectel, etc are seen as higher end spec with tons of features, uprated cpus, complex algorithms,---basically the works and a bag of chips.

so those tend to be out of the average starlet build budget and requirements

i'm being devil's advocate here, ok, we hear a lot about apexi power fc over the years, but with the advancement of technology and cpus, how does it really rate up nowadays to link, haltech, MS, ME221, which can be made to be direct plug and play without too much hassle. i mean it does not even have a 2 step limiter (LC), but yet still commands a fairly hefty price tag today....i'm not sure its any better than emu in terms of map resolution and functionality.

yes, i take your point that many "mildly modded" road cars may not require all the features of standalones...and all standalones are not created equal, even within the same price range....so in those cases a piggyback may be an option. However, i think the price of a new piggyback with sensors will run you nearly the same as a decent standalone....its becomes more economical when bought 2nd hand for sure

i know the one problem tuners have with piggybacks is their lack of "absoluteness"....by this i mean you are adjusting relative figures to the stock ecu, whereas with a standalone you know exactly what timing and fuel you are running for example

and sometimes persons also fall prey to all the hype and buy stuff based on what they are told to get by groups/tuners/crews/clubs without really knowing what they are getting into

Edited April 27, 2017 by gorganl2000

[5e colin]

just to mess this up ha ha got to love the old rrfpr and fcd combo linked to the safc

theres a chap ere running 240bhp like that

[AdamB]

i understand that and agree fully AdamB

ecus like mote , gems, pectel, etc are seen as higher end spec with tons of features, uprated cpus, complex algorithms,---basically the works and a bag of chips.

so those tend to be out of the average starlet build budget and requirements

i'm being devil's advocate here, ok, we hear a lot about apexi power fc over the years, but with the advancement of technology and cpus, how does it really rate up nowadays to link, haltech, MS, ME221, which can be made to be direct plug and play without too much hassle. i mean it does not even have a 2 step limiter (LC), but yet still commands a fairly hefty price tag today....i'm not sure its any better than emu in terms of map resolution and functionality.

yes, i take your point that many "mildly modded" road cars may not require all the features of standalones...and all standalones are not created equal, even within the same price range....so in those cases a piggyback may be an option. However, i think the price of a new piggyback with sensors will run you nearly the same as a decent standalone....its becomes more economical when bought 2nd hand for sure

i know the one problem tuners have with piggybacks is their lack of "absoluteness"....by this i mean you are adjusting relative figures to the stock ecu, whereas with a standalone you know exactly what timing and fuel you are running for example

and sometimes persons also fall prey to all the hype and buy stuff based on what they are told to get by groups/tuners/crews/clubs without really knowing what they are getting into

[Gainzy]

I'm a big beliver in you get what you pay for see back when plug n plays were made technology would of been amazing now 15 plus years later it's even more amazing the ecu has advanced even more but some price tags are stupid even now on the plug n plays and apexi I really agree with Adam. I feel like now it's all money and power chasing, too big turbo's just been thrown at the starlet. I like to look in the hyper rev and still get hyped on the old stuff. I never wanted the emb but I knew it would do a finer job I don't really rate the emu I couldn't see a better result even with the Apexi I suppose it's all down to the individual I feel like the more money you have the more problems you can create it's hard to keep it simple. Out of all the ecu's out there the plug n plays are my favourites just because they are less hassle lol

[gorganl2000]

just to mess this up ha ha got to love the old rrfpr and fcd combo linked to the safc

theres a chap ere running 240bhp like that

nice work colin lol....this will work for some set ups, but as you know its not ideal

problem is you tune fuel fairly ok...but there is no outlet to refine ignition with that combo

so in theory the tune may not be optimised as it relies solely on the stock ecu for ignition adjustments

its even more trouble when you run low octane gas

[gorganl2000]

They are higher spec, but then it depends how much you value the engine at really doesn't it. The better the capability of ECU the better protected the motor is going to be. Providing it's calibrated by someone who knows what they're doing that is.

You can say that most standalones are out of the majority of Starlet'ers budgets, a lot of people can't justify the cost, even something like a Link/Haltech will set you back close to £2000 by the time it's bought, fitted, new wiring loom?, mapped. A lot of people are also uneducated and think, why do I need this one over an Mines, Blitz etc when it's three times cheaper?

The Apexi FC is ancient, remember it was never designed for the Starlet though, it was re-engineered. They're expensive because they're not easy to get hold of, and like anything that's rare, they command are higher price tag. Are they worth it? No not imo. I'd prefer to see plug & play's drop to £300-£350, and Apexi's at £600-£650.

I've not used Apexi software, but Haltech/Link/MS are all very user friendly and they provide great help as well.

I'm not sure I agree that a piggyback with sensors is nearly the same as a decent standalone. Define decent standalone? Also don't forget, it's not just a case of buying a standalone, it's all the rest that you need to go with it. And again it comes down to user requirement.

I'm not convinced with the whole piggyback thing to be honest, they're not my thing. But they do provide greater flexibility to those that don't want to spend a fortune and that's why they're popular and have a place in the market.

smh..have to retype everything...had responded in detail and it got lost...so i'll be more concise now.

i think i paid around US$1000 for a new and complete emu package in 2006...plus the fields harness. i can speak for emu with stock 4efte ecu, i think they work well together IF the tuner takes their time and does a decent job.

if apexi FC is going to be around gbp650,,,then its got a direct rival in ME221 which is a much more recent product, so i'm not sure that would make apexi Fc very popular given its dated technology.

i think PnPs like jams blitz, etc should really only be options if you have proven results for a specific set up or know from the company what set up they were specifically designed for, else its just guessing as said before...even then i see then in the gbp250/350 range max. they will continue to work on set up as they have in the past, but they are seldom optimizing the set up. i know that will not be a popular thing to say about PNPs lolol

[gorganl2000]

I'm a big beliver in you get what you pay for see back when plug n plays were made technology would of been amazing now 15 plus years later it's even more amazing the ecu has advanced even more but some price tags are stupid even now on the plug n plays and apexi I really agree with Adam. I feel like now it's all money and power chasing, too big turbo's just been thrown at the starlet. I like to look in the hyper rev and still get hyped on the old stuff. I never wanted the emb but I knew it would do a finer job I don't really rate the emu I couldn't see a better result even with the Apexi I suppose it's all down to the individual I feel like the more money you have the more problems you can create it's hard to keep it simple. Out of all the ecu's out there the plug n plays are my favourites just because they are less hassle lol

hey gainzy,,,i considered the emb and the emu before chossing the emu

emu is just like an uprated emb...it allows for a more refined tuned due to its software and maps. i'm not sure if emb has 2 step limiter function (not that it is important for the average daily driver...but if you drag then its a benefit)....if i already had emb, then i dont think it would be worth it to "upgrade" to emu

[AdamB]

smh..have to retype everything...had responded in detail and it got lost...so i'll be more concise now.

i think i paid around US$1000 for a new and complete emu package in 2006...plus the fields harness. i can speak for emu with stock 4efte ecu, i think they work well together IF the tuner takes their time and does a decent job.

if apexi FC is going to be around gbp650,,,then its got a direct rival in ME221 which is a much more recent product, so i'm not sure that would make apexi Fc very popular given its dated technology.

i think PnPs like jams blitz, etc should really only be options if you have proven results for a specific set up or know from the company what set up they were specifically designed for, else its just guessing as said before...even then i see then in the gbp250/350 range max. they will continue to work on set up as they have in the past, but they are seldom optimizing the set up. i know that will not be a popular thing to say about PNPs lolol

Talking at todays rates, EMU's can be picked up rather cheap, £400 or so with harness? I agree, they do work well for the majority of people, and that's the reason why they have a place in the market as I said.

The ME221 is not proven from what I've seen so far (quick lurk). Again don't forget, it may not just be buying the unit, as with all standalones you have to factor in any sensor changes, TPS, MAP are just two and they can set you back circa £100 alone. Then if you want to change ignition setup etc etc.

The Apexi is expensive yes, but as I've said, it's rare and has JDM factor about it, we all know they're not the best, but then neither is the ME221.

Being plug & play is not always a good thing because you don't get the flexibility.

Regarding plug & plays, let's be realistic, how many engine failures have you heard of that were down to the plug & play ECU calibration? I've heard more horror stories about poor mapping by a number of traders / ex traders on here than I have problems with P&P's.

Real interesting topic though

Edited April 28, 2017 by AdamB

[ramses]

Hi

sorry for the delay, the weather is very bad in my island ...

1) the piggyback/ecu solutions

In the past i have had experimented a lot of Ecu and piggyback , my car was like a laboratory...And for the 4efte it seems that :

-EMB

-SAFC

-reprogrammed ecu were the only option for our car

In fact it was impossible to change the stock ecu programm or adding an eprom or reflash it

This is why the piggyback was so popular and cheap

They work well, and you get instant pleasure to use them.With the biggest turbos we even have the possibility to cheat with the case. However, there are 2 major problems:

- a lot of wires in the car

- if you add the items you can reach the price of a standalone . Remember the first standalone , not so well , not very better,and it costs a lot ...(we were in the 8bit area) BUT, the price to tune here is too hign , you had to pay sometimes 1500euros to get your car tuned .

Why paying a lot if this old combo works ???

The only thing i can tell you " it's working" ...

i am with a special "combo" : EMU/BLITZ ecu ... but i know that Blitz can programm the ecu for bigger injectors ,as i said my friend works with BLitz japan

2)emu/piggyback VS standalone

Sorry guys , but in our 4efte we will not see a significant difference in power etc ,Special if you have the EMU...

AS i said , we have 2 starlets NA turboed with td04L13, and the 2 cars made the same power , no one is better than the other...the only thing is the price : 2500e for standalone and 500e for a EMB(!) .

The EMB/EMB works well with Honda (F series,b series too)

In other cars , i cannot tell that the solution is good and works well.

MY old mazda has an ecu, and i was thinking wiring an Safc or EMB/EMU...

the SAFC was staling a lot the car, and the EMB/EMU cannot drive the ignition correctly .The car sometimes has somes cuts ,and it stalls a lot .How can i retard the ignition with a turboed car ?

i finaly went a few days with and old SAFC and ITC apexi with 5 knobs , i can only go to 0.5 bar and that's all ... However thecar was not runing fine , some hesitation, some hasardous knocking...

The standalone way seems for me a better choice , i went to some standalone (a kms bad mapped,and a Motek bad mapped too)

I was very disapointed ,and came back to my old 5 knobs apexi.

Finaly my friend with his Fueltech saved my life and now all is fine

As i said it is all in the tune

Edited April 29, 2017 by ramses

[gorganl2000]

Talking at todays rates, EMU's can be picked up rather cheap, £400 or so with harness? I agree, they do work well for the majority of people, and that's the reason why they have a place in the market as I said.

The ME221 is not proven from what I've seen so far (quick lurk). Again don't forget, it may not just be buying the unit, as with all standalones you have to factor in any sensor changes, TPS, MAP are just two and they can set you back circa £100 alone. Then if you want to change ignition setup etc etc.

The Apexi is expensive yes, but as I've said, it's rare and has JDM factor about it, we all know they're not the best, but then neither is the ME221.

Being plug & play is not always a good thing because you don't get the flexibility.

Regarding plug & plays, let's be realistic, how many engine failures have you heard of that were down to the plug & play ECU calibration? I've heard more horror stories about poor mapping by a number of traders / ex traders on here than I have problems with P&P's.

Real interesting topic though

i cant speak with any certainty, but it does seem the ME221 uses all the stock sensors, but you will need to add a boost solenoid if you want to run more than 1 bar (as it relies on the stock MAP sensor). there was a graph indicating it produced 20bhp more than stock ecu. A few persons have bought them now, so i figure the forum will get some real life feedback over the next few weeks so a more definitive conclusion can be reached.

me personally, if i was forced to go standalone i think i'd use Link, a number of tuners seem to rate them, but again many choices out there for everyone's budget and needs

http://www.ukstarletowners.com/topic/104095-group-buy-ep82ep91-pnp-me221-ecu/page-3#entry1211568

you are correct, the old PnPs do seem to do a decent job...and i can attest to that personally, even on my low octane gas my engine survived. And my friend with 4efte hybrid ct9 jam ecu---his worked very well, in fact even better suited to his set up than mine set up felt. I think he got lucky and got a JAM ecu that matched/optimised his set up, while i got one that "worked" with my set up at the time, but was pale in comparison to his...lol

yes, its a nice topic and i think it comes up in little sections in other treads, so i'm hoping to get some views and feedback from the forum on this one so users can benefit now and in the future---make more informed buying decisions, understand the value of their money, optimize their set ups, etc

@ ramses, before i sold the Jam ecu. we tried to tune it with the EMU attached. I made no more power or felt any different to when i used the stock ecu...so the decision was made to sell the JAM ecu. At that point i was quite happy about thier resale value...lol...as i was able to break even after maybe a year or two of ownership lolol...when i was buying it i thought it was too expensive, but i wanted security and piece of mind at the time so i went with it as they are proven to "work" at minimal....when i was selling it i thought it was over priced, but that's what the market was willing to pay, plus i could use the funds to help offset my emu and tuning expenses.

did you ever try the stock ecu with emb ramses?

does anyone have any information on dastek...iirc didn't burwash use one back in the day with success??

Edited April 29, 2017 by gorganl2000

[ramses]

Yes i tried the emb and there is a big difference when tuning a 4efte with EMB

x you cannot remove fuel,you can only add fuel by the INJ harness , to REMOVE FUEL you must go to the Airflow table ...

x another solution , is to add a 5th injector for bigger turbo on some 4efte or 4e NA ,for the 4efte you will notice something "smooth" and on the Na engine , you will have no cuts ,no hesitation etc

x you can raise the rev limitier with 2 diodes and the inj harness too

[gorganl2000]

i must say that times certainly have changed, i can not recall the last time i heard someone mention a 5th injector

that table would tend to be used to control some other peripheral device now