Help please! Mechanics can't solve suspension problem...

[dazstarlet]

Hope you guys can help me out here, this problem is really making me crazy! Sorry for all the waffle in the detail bit, but hopefully the timeline history may help you to understand what the problem may be.

Brief:

Car feels like it's moving side to side at the back - this is at high speed or over big bumps etc. Seems to have lateral play in rear suspension even when you push on the side panels.

Going around sharp corners there is a lot of oversteer and car feels like it's freewheeling.

Detail:

So first a rundown on the history of suspension work on the car.

I decided to have new suspension fitted all round as it was on all originals, so a couple of years ago I had some KYB shocks and struts fitted at each corner + bump stops all round + new front top mounts (KYB did not sell rear top mounts for some reason). The fitter I used messed up at the front, but the new stuff at the rear seemed fine and eventually all was sorted and handling was much improved (together with new 15" Yaris alloys that had been fitted).

One year later I started to feel handling get a bit 'sloppy', could not put my finger on why though and soon after a rear top mount failed which I assumed was the sloppy handling root cause issue and both rear mounts were replaced. Initially after that was done things seemed a bit better, but gradually since then handling has deteriorated. The feeling was now quite clear - that is that the car seemed to be unstable at the rear end over bumps and at speed. It feels like the rear end is moving about side to side, with the drivers side seeming to be the culprit. Sometimes there is a weird sensation of 'free-wheeling', and it even makes you feel a bit disorientated when you drive. My thoughts were backed up by a few drivers who seemed to be flashing their lights at me from behind - like they could see something wrong as I drive the car. This got worse until tbh driving the car felt dangerous. I noticed that the car even shakes more than it should when you shut the door! One other thing is that when I reversed up a slight incline over a low height kerb stone every night to park up I could always hear a clanking sound coming from the back (that always sounded like the left rear side though).

So off car goes for normal service and I tell the mechanic about the issue which people were telling me it might be the rear bushes. As part of the service I already planned to have new wheel bearings all round (+ new rear drums and front tie rods) so if bearings were the issue that would be sorted. This work was all done, and the mechanic found that the right side new KYB shock had failed. Both rear shocks were replaced with what I imagine are inferior motor factor generic replacements.

Problem solved so mechanic said after he road tested it ... er, no it's not solved at all. Far from it. Certainly the car felt a bit better initially (as it would if a shock had gone), but even after having a decent front wheel alignment with Hunter machine the car again felt like it was moving about at rear and now getting worse. The wheel alignment chap could see nothing wrong with rear suspension on the ramp. So then went off to my usual tyre fitter and asked there advice. Told them all the story and the lad shoved on the rear right wheel and we could both see some movement there and even heard a clanking sound that seemed to be coming from between new drums and the hub. That's your problem said the lad, so car goes back to garage and I tell mechanic about the clanking from this right side wheel. He double checks things and tells me that the bushes are 100% fine, but he did find some play in the new wheel bearings at the rear both sides so he tightens them up. He road tests the car and tells me all is ok the problem is solved... again no it's not solved at all.

So now I am at a loss. I have had new rear top mounts, shocks, springs, bump stops, bearings. Plus the bushes are fine I am assured and also had tracking done and there is no steering judder so that should be wheel balancing out of the equation.

I could be chasing my tail now if the replacement rear shocks or new bearings are rubbish quality, but I don't see why that should be. It doesn't feel like vertical travel is the problem. What else could it be that the mechanics have missed twice and the tracking guy can't see when it's on the ramp? Any ideas appreciated, as I am out of them

Edited July 24, 2015 by dazstarlet

[enots]

You checked the axle bushes??where the rear beam acrually bolts up to the bottom of the shell? Can get poly ones to replace these which would eliminate any sideways movement i woulda thought

[Johnboy GT]

Check your inner rear arches for any scuff marks. Sounds very similar to what 306 rear suspension ends up like but they have a torsion bar and the internal bushes deteriorate.

Scuff marks would suggest play in the rear axle.

John

[morgey]

Is the panard rod in good nick, is it an adjustable one and is it all tight? Thats what controls lateral movement.

Also theres a bar that runs inside the rear beam that can snap and can clang around worth having a look at that.

[Rosso321]

What morgey said. I had a problem like this was making knocking noise thought was shocks and rear bearings and turned out to be the rubber in the panrod.

[Flaminsam]

I would have said panhard rod. I'm guessing it's a non turbo UK car? The stub axles are bolted onto the main axle on UK cars. Check the bolts in there for tightness. Besides that the tube inside the channel of the axle can fail (like morgey said) apart from that you should have no movement?

[daniel_g]

Panhard rod

[mart1]

Has the car ever been in a bump? Might not be straight, I bought an old mini cooper & when you got it up to 60 the car use to move from left to right, it was horrible to drive I only just bought it at the time, I went to a garage to see what the problem was & found out that it was not straight & had been in a rear end bump, soon after I sold it on for cheap.

[JDMfreak]

Panhard rod I've taken these out when breaking starlets and the back end are all over the place will swing from side to side the bushes wear inside around the two metal tubes they sit over I'd double check them for definite as they do fail and deteriorate

[adzy]

Sounds like panard rod bushes to me.

Mine was all over the place when I had a bust shock but I replaced it and sorted it right out.

[dazstarlet]

Thanks for all the replies. Appreciate it. I will check out the things you mention may be wrong. You are worrying me though in one way... I mentioned the pan rod as maybe a root cause to one of the people who has seen the car underneath and they told me it didn't have one Maybe that's the problem! Has it fallen off... I'd better get that checked out... Excuse my ignorance but is that adjustable or fixed on the UK model? The car was in a minor shunt on the drivers side, but it was only light panel damage afaik. Did not have the problems at that point or when the car came out of the bodyshop. Other than that shunt it has had a quiet life with a pensioner first owner before me.

Edited July 24, 2015 by dazstarlet

[morgey]

Its fixed as standard on all models but most people fit adjustable ones when lowering their car.

It sits on the front side of the rear beam. Bolts to the chassis on the drivers side and beam on the passengers.

if you dont have one then thats 100% your problem lol

[daniel_g]

Holy shit!

[JDMfreak]

should look something like this but this is adjustable so yours will just be a straight bar with black bushes either side

[JDMfreak]

if yours is broke or gone will be like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wce96-QlrfU&feature=player_detailpage

Edited July 24, 2015 by JDMfreak

[5T4R7ET N/A]

Take a picture of underneath you car and post it up if your not sure. We will tell you.

[dazstarlet]

I have created a video, maybe it will show something you guys can see is wrong.

https://youtu.be/bix2J2X_Z3s

Edited July 29, 2015 by dazstarlet

[JDMfreak]

did ya upload the video

[dazstarlet]

did ya upload the video

Yes it's up now mate. Not too great I don't think to see anything.

[morgey]

Looks as if the panard is there, but its hard to say as its on the other side of the axle.

Only thing i can think of is knackered bushes but cant remember if youve done them or not?

[JDMfreak]

as morgey said pan hard rod is on other side of axle

have a look at the video I uploaded see if the car has any movement from side it should be fairly solid and should only have body sway

another test jack car up at rear preferably place jacks on sills there two places you can put them two little notches missing so axle is free to move up and down side to side and grab the wheel doesn't matter what side do both and pull and push wheel see if it has any sideways movement

Edited July 30, 2015 by JDMfreak

[dazstarlet]

An update, and touch wood it's good news. I have a two strikes and you are done policy with garages and mechanics, so it was never a possibility I would go back to the same guy for a 3rd time after he checked the car out and told me all was fine. So searching around for a good mechanic I had a gut feeling that this local old chap who specialised in Land Rovers would (or should) know his stuff when it came to suspension matters. So I trundled off to his garage before work yesterday so he could take a look.

We went out for a road test, and although I could easily sense the same issue from the passenger seat the mechanic was not really seeing or feeling what the problem was. He said the rear was following the front fine. Ok..... So I was a bit deflated at that point. But my hunch that he would be the right man turned out good. He did hear a clanking sound when we came out of a corner, so he had something to go on. We got back to his garage and he had an inspection pit and a machine that tests out suspension and wheel movement. Large moving pads that one side of the wheels sit on shake everything to buggary and he watched from underneath (pretty damn scary to watch too... the movement in all directions that it forces from the wheels / suspension is so much you think it will break them off!). At last he sees that it is in fact one of the bushes that the last bloke checked twice and swore blind were fine, it's perished and there is quite a lot of movement forwards and backwards - so the left rear is moving out of vertical alignment which would explain the oversteer and sense of freewheeling around corners and the general instability I feel.

So fingers crossed this is near to resolved. Thanks for the advice you gave chaps, I will post once more if/when this sorts it but it looks promising.