gorganl2000 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 any information and real life experiences with respect to the various billet compressor wheel blade count/design and its impact on turbo spool and power delivery/curve? some even have extended tip exducer seems there a lot of billet wheels out there for sale Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 It seems that some of the big players have been using extended tip designs for years, I know Garrett have been using them on their GTX series, something of which they are prominant in telling customers. However with this in mind Borg Warner, which also own KKK and Switzer, have been using extended tips for years, long before Garrett started using them.I don't know whether there was some kind of Patent regarding the use of extended tips which stopped Garrett using them any earlier. If you want some good testing figures and graphs, head over to Perrin Performance and check out their blog. They have done a lot of testing regarding various different turbo's from comparing Garrett GT and GTX series, to Borg Warner EFR and S* series turbo's. Albeit based on Subaru's but the information is good. I also agree there are a lot of billet wheels out there now for sale, for various different turbochargers and frames, but does just having a billet wheel make a difference? No not really, the blade and aero design is key, the material is not what makes a billet wheel special, and just because a compressor wheel is billet, does it mean it's any good? A lot of people seem to think that a billet wheel makes the turbo something special, that's down to someone's opinion... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
H_D Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 It seems that some of the big players have been using extended tip designs for years, I know Garrett have been using them on their GTX series, something of which they are prominant in telling customers. However with this in mind Borg Warner, which also own KKK and Switzer, have been using extended tips for years, long before Garrett started using them. I don't know whether there was some kind of Patent regarding the use of extended tips which stopped Garrett using them any earlier. If you want some good testing figures and graphs, head over to Perrin Performance and check out their blog. They have done a lot of testing regarding various different turbo's from comparing Garrett GT and GTX series, to Borg Warner EFR and S* series turbo's. Albeit based on Subaru's but the information is good. I also agree there are a lot of billet wheels out there now for sale, for various different turbochargers and frames, but does just having a billet wheel make a difference? No not really, the blade and aero design is key, the material is not what makes a billet wheel special, and just because a compressor wheel is billet, does it mean it's any good? A lot of people seem to think that a billet wheel makes the turbo something special, that's down to someone's opinion... LOL Adam - tell it how is. I bet a lot of people don't even know what billet means. No names mentioned but someone was under the impression billet is the name of the metal I just agreed whilst laughing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 LOL Adam - tell it how is. I bet a lot of people don't even know what billet means. No names mentioned but someone was under the impression billet is the name of the metal I just agreed whilst laughing. I just tend to sit in the background and laugh at most people these days tbh mate Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gorganl2000 Posted October 12, 2015 Author Share Posted October 12, 2015 thanks adamB...will take a look at the site and see what it has to say Quote Link to post Share on other sites
5e colin Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I just tend to sit in the background and laugh at most people these days tbh mate DAM that fucks me right up i always thouth the billet wheels where lighter so spooled faster after reading that NOT al billets are lighter !!!!! only some i better check my kinugiwa order Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 DAM that fucks me right up i always thouth the billet wheels where lighter so spooled faster after reading that NOT al billets are lighter !!!!! only some i better check my kinugiwa order The problem is, what most manufacturers do that produce billet wheels is to make them larger, negating any weight difference between cast and billet wheels. This article from Perrin makes for an interesting read, although probably no use to any starlet owners as running GT30 + frame turbo's, I would only assume that the results filter down to the likes of the GT28 frame turbo's as well which seem to be more common these days. http://blog.perrinperformance.com/garrett-gtx-turbo-comparo-part-2/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gorganl2000 Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 that was an interesting read adam b only wished to find more info on the different style blades on these billet wheels seems they make their additional power from diameter enlargement and design enhancements Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 What is it you want to find out about blade styles, number of blades etc? It makes sense that the additional airflow increase comes from making the wheel and consquently housing larger, fundamentals tell us that you can only flow X kg of air through Y sized hole. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gorganl2000 Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) What is it you want to find out about blade styles, number of blades etc? It makes sense that the additional airflow increase comes from making the wheel and consquently housing larger, fundamentals tell us that you can only flow X kg of air through Y sized hole. adamb....what type of wheel is on the garrett gt turbo...billet or cast? http://www.toyotagtturbo.com/forums/showthread.php?109631-billet-compressor-wheels-6-6-vs-7-7-vs-11-blade like the kind of info rev provided here....some estimates on spool, hp, where the power comes on, etc i agree with your logic concerning the compressor hole size...but if its not maximized yet, then there is room for improvement----this is just for argument sake, as i cant prove i'm one of those persons who likes a lot of info before i make any decision....i'm not one to buy into marketing hype/gimmicks Edited October 14, 2015 by gorganl2000 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 The Garrett GT series uses a cast compressor wheel, its only the GTX series which use billet -11 blade design. Obviously there are other companies that offer billet wheels on regular GT series turbo's. I think you'll find most of your answers on a compressor map, noting how many blades a wheel has, the blade angle, tip length etc is in far too much detail. Let the manufacturers design and build them, then just pick one which suits. You have to take into account that the compressor needs to be carefully matched with the turbine, it's the turbine that drives it. Of course there is room for improvement, but in my eyes, the improvements should be made on the turbine side, not the compressor side. Changing the turbine housing is one example which will allow the compressor to flow more air. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gorganl2000 Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 u make great points again adamb ---- its refreshing to have discussions without people getting all upset and cussing out as i see on some treads...lol i know that an upgrade of turbo should be taken in its entirety...with proper testing and all however, do you recall maybe about 10 - 15 year ago when all the hype was about the "hiflow" ct9s?---some did compressor wheel swaps only....some added compressor housing swaps....some added turbine housing porting....some even added turbine wheel swaps some combinations worked..while others were not much better than the stock ct9b same thing with the hybrid td04L...etc the gtx/gt compressor maps and actual perrin testing both indicate that power is there to be made if done properly Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 (edited) From what I've seen or can remember regarding the ct9's, was mainly the compressor wheels being changed, which were changed for larger diameter both exducer and inducer, and hence this then required the housing to be machined out to allow fitment of larger wheels.If I recall correctly, I think it was only ToyTuning that fiddled and played about with the turbine housings, I'm not so sure if Toby done anything with the turbine wheel though. The housings were deffinately ported though ! Again from what I can remember, wern't people taking compressor wheels from the Supra turbo's, was it the CT26? I'm sure there was another as well, again like you say, I don't think the results were that great. But I believe this to be down to more the turbine side which was restricting flow, once you get to 1 bar boost, the turbine seemed to bottleneck and not be able to produce anymore. For sure the GTX series flows more than the regular GT series, but then I would expect it to with having larger exducer/inducer diameters. I can confirm though that turbine wheels and housings on GTX series are exactly the same, all Garrett did was literally change compressor wheels to 11 blade billets. Edited October 15, 2015 by AdamB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gorganl2000 Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 you are correct....they used ct26 and ct12 wheels...even the mazda gtx wheel at some points.....with some porting of the stock housing...this was the first partthen some sellers realised they were gains to be made from porting the housing as you correctly said it was a bottle neck....some ported just the penny hole, while some even ported the housing itself which i suppose changes the a/r??---toby, speedvision, (JD?? if i remember there were some issues with him), etci suspect the blitz k1 is something similar along those lines these were the rave in australia, caribbean, uk and malta then came the chinese hybrids too the result were very varied....some people had massive improvements........some people were very disappointed as the ct9b probably made the same power lolsome people had good results then the turbo blew shortly after....which caused all kinds of drama this just shows how long you have been around starlets lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 That's the one, the CT12, wasn't aware of the Mazda wheels though!Yep you are correct about the turbine work, although I can't recall 100% who done what, I've seen one of Toby's CT9 hybrids first hand, going back, to me the turbine housing looked OEM, but the penny was ported, the turbine wheel was deffinately OEM although I'll stand to be corrected. The Tong's hybrids have been, and probably still are considered to be the best hybrid CT9 there has been, it would be interesting to get pictures of each of the hybrid turbo's from different manufacturers to compare them, like ToyTuning, Speedvision, Tong's, Blitz etc.I'm led to believe the chinese counterpart options are just copies of the Speedvision hybrid, since this seems to be the only available hybrid to buy (other than the Race-Tech one which is relatively new), it would make sense for the chinese to purchase one, and copy it directly but using cheaper, and likely inferior materials. It's hard to pinpoint why some were giving poor results compared to others Been around far too long, and so have you Quote Link to post Share on other sites
daniel_g Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 There were 3 types of tongs iirc, the GT spec one of the one to have, used some of either tf035 or td04 internals.All the info is archived on UKSC if anyone still has access? Or the threads my be buried on here somewhere. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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