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Reliable High HP Build


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Think Dylan's running 550 or so on his road car.

Spuddys motor maybe not a great one think they went pretty mental on block strength so cooling may be out the window on a road car. (Concrete in water ways etc I think)

I'd say your going about it the right way.

Fuel with mainland 100ron fuel or e85 you should be grand

Look forward to seeing how you get on.

What's your IHI turbo?

Phil

Thanks Phil.

Yeah won't be filling the block because road car, but I am looking into ideas for upper cylinder block strength.

The core of the turbo is a Ihi RX6D with custom trims and housings to achieve the power aim. Would you believe it the turbo is like 4 times the size of a ct9, but weighs half of the weight of a ct9. Very light components in there with very tight tolerances is what makes it able to spool up relatively quick.

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Even with the stronger main caps, there will still be cap walk and something's gonna come flying out the block. Some sort of girdle to go with the caps will be good I think...


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Thanks Robsr,

I have checked out Spuddy's build and also spoke with AnimalGT over PM's. What amazing builds they are and proof that it can be done with the right ingredients in the recipe. I am going to check out the monstorous build's that are Dylan's and Zisco.

I think with the main caps, it is hit and miss because they are cast, but in a high hp build I don't think it's worth the risk.

I have seen many engines survive and quite a few that have been let down.

Here is pictures of a 4EFTE that was running approx. 300 hp. It ran with the same tune for many year's and covered many miles.

20160203_124713_zpspcnryahg.jpg

20160203_124645_zpsbopypano.jpg

You look at the bearings closely, there is signs of cap walk from the vector force of the crankshaft and has gone to the weak point on the cap and finished it off. I Have also read of many examples of the caps breaking on this forum so I don't think it's worth the risk.

Although I have 9:1 CR pistons, the final C/R is going to be considerably lower and car will only be ran on road fuel Shell 99 nitro. Boost pressure ratio for now is just approx., but can push more to reach hp aim.

I will come and shake your hand, I've been following your new build with interest and looks good.

I look forward to it. I will be building an engine over the next year also so I'll keep track of what you do. Make sure to get a build thread up or drop me a PM etc if you wish.

Nice to see someone else switched on on this forum. A lot of the japs used to run the RX6 but it never crossed my mind. I think I'm going to stick with a re-worked 2860 or precision 5*** series. My aim being 400 but with decent response.

Interesting looking at those pictures and the ARP main bolts.. Do you think that could of upset things? Much like with EVO's.. A lot of people started changing the rod bolts to ARP items as it was deem'd the weak link. Turns out after doing that a lot more started poping rods out... Food for thought !

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Yeah sure I will.



I see what your saying with the ARP studs that have a higher torque down value and so a bigger clamping force which could cause stress on the stock caps, but I don't think this was the case because the engine ran for many year's and covered many miles and so I would have expected this too happen much earlier in the engine's life.


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I'd say the potentially most expensive issue is gearbox solutions

Interested to hear what folks have tried to overcome that.

Billet gearset would be ideal at a price point of roughly 1.5k new

But never likely to happen

Phil

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4E will need billet mains and or girdle.



ARP headbolts start to yield around 1.7 bar, 400bhp ish. After that studs will do.



I'm sure Phil will be able to chime in here, but I thought I remembered hearing Spuddy say he/ ECC used to pull the sump after very short periods (can't remember off the top of my head) and check the bearing shells.


Keeping the motor reliable relies on meticulous maintenance, the way you're making it sound is that you want it to be able to do 10k mileage and not have to do nothing other than change the oil... Excuse me if I've got the wrong end of the stick here.



There's so many issues here that would need addressing, I would be building another motor rather than using one that's already been thrashed.


Edited by AdamB
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Personally I'm using stock Toyota headbolts and sticking around 370 for the track/road

Someday I might push it for the crack on the dyno. But maybe not a good idea lol

Phil

Edited by Phil
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I think the thought of a 600bhp starlet is ridiculous, a 300bhp starlet will struggle with 195tyres no matter what compound tyre and no matter which way the steering wheel is pointing, unless your powerband is linier I can't see how is going to be remotely plausible. Just makes me laugh people dreaming about starlets with massive power. 230-250bhp is perfect anything else just spend your money on something that can handle the power

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So you want a 600bhp EP as a road car? Blimey.

Look up Spuddy/AnimalGT/Zisco's/Dylan's builds. I don't think any of the Irish boys are running billet caps.

If you hit 600 bhp at 25psi on a 4e with that turbo and GT30 spool on road fuel I'll come to wherever you are and shake your hand.

those same names crossed me mind

and spool on a 4e maybe very different to spool on other engines

for that type of power, i'd assume race gas is a must, unless he runs a very low boost street tune on pump gas, which would have its own drawbacks

last few gt30 graphs seem a bit on the laggy side and that's even on a 5e

i'm all for exotic builds and i respect the fact that the OP wants to do it the right way the first time,,,and is doing his research

i hope he can get in contact with some of these high power builder/owners,,,, however, if certain trade secrets from garages/builders/owners are involved, it maybe hard to get full information-------as much as we like free asymmetrical information on the forums, some businesses/engineers/builders/owners work hard to get an edge and we have to respect them for wanting to hold that edge

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I'd say the potentially most expensive issue is gearbox solutions

Interested to hear what folks have tried to overcome that.

Billet gearset would be ideal at a price point of roughly 1.5k new

But never likely to happen

Phil

wasn't it socks and spuddy that ran through a fair few stock gearboxes

i think zisco offer a dog box from memory??

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Personally I'm using stock Toyota headbolts and sticking around 370 for the track/road

Someday I might push it for the crack on the dyno. But maybe not a good idea lol

Phil

yeah, have seen 300whp builds use stock headbolts, headgasket, head....but i suppose at his intended power figures, stock items are not an option as he's talking double that

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4E will need billet mains and or girdle.

ARP headbolts start to yield around 1.7 bar, 400bhp ish. After that studs will do.

I'm sure Phil will be able to chime in here, but I thought I remembered hearing Spuddy say he/ ECC used to pull the sump after very short periods (can't remember off the top of my head) and check the bearing shells.

Keeping the motor reliable relies on meticulous maintenance, the way you're making it sound is that you want it to be able to do 10k mileage and not have to do nothing other than change the oil... Excuse me if I've got the wrong end of the stick here.

There's so many issues here that would need addressing, I would be building another motor rather than using one that's already been thrashed.

I am gonna be taking my engine out soon. It’s covered approx. 50k running just over 300 hp and 20 + psi boost pressure. I will get pictures of the all the bearing’s to see what condition they are in. I think if there is no issues with alignment, cap walk, good oil clearances, using good and right grade of oil and correct oil pressure, there should not be a problem. I am aiming to make this a minimal maintaince motor regarding changing bearing’s every so often. I think the most damage to the bearings occur’s on cold starts.

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those same names crossed me mind

and spool on a 4e maybe very different to spool on other engines

for that type of power, i'd assume race gas is a must, unless he runs a very low boost street tune on pump gas, which would have its own drawbacks

last few gt30 graphs seem a bit on the laggy side and that's even on a 5e

i'm all for exotic builds and i respect the fact that the OP wants to do it the right way the first time,,,and is doing his research

i hope he can get in contact with some of these high power builder/owners,,,, however, if certain trade secrets from garages/builders/owners are involved, it maybe hard to get full information-------as much as we like free asymmetrical information on the forums, some businesses/engineers/builders/owners work hard to get an edge and we have to respect them for wanting to hold that edge

Thanks for your input.

You can compare with other setups regarding spool time and useable power bands, but this turbo you cannot compare it to a garrett.

Yes I understand not everyone will share all there knowledge, tips and tricks, but from all the info I have gathered over the years, from speaking to members, engine builders, tuners I think I have a good idea of what’s required atleast I hope so.

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Just putting this here.

http://www.ukstarletowners.com/topic/98746-pro-gram-billet-main-caps-toyota-13l-4efte/

Was wondering it would be good to know which main cap broke on engines that have had this issue. On the pictures above the user said it was cap no: 1, closest to the timing belt.

Would be good to know if this a common trend on engines running at this power level for future reference and you have been warned, if your going for this sort of power level, just keep this in mind. I don’t think it’s worth the risk especially when you put in this much money into build.


I have emailed arp regarding 12mm head stud’s and I’m gonna pilot it on a spare cylinder block and head to see it can be done with no issues. I cannot risk trying it on my engine as there is a lot of work already done to it. Stay tuned guy’s I’m gonna pulling the motor out soon and start to collect the parts required.

Edited by GP82
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^ how would a 5e be any more reliable than a 4e at that power ?

5E has wider journals. But as you're well aware a lot of it depends on the map.

I am gonna be taking my engine out soon. It’s covered approx. 50k running just over 300 hp and 20 + psi boost pressure. I will get pictures of the all the bearing’s to see what condition they are in. I think if there is no issues with alignment, cap walk, good oil clearances, using good and right grade of oil and correct oil pressure, there should not be a problem. I am aiming to make this a minimal maintaince motor regarding changing bearing’s every so often. I think the most damage to the bearings occur’s on cold starts.

What about cylinder wall thickness? What about main bearing alignment to the cylinders? What about pressure testing the block and head?

Off the top of my head I believe Spuddy was checking / replacing bearings every 1000 miles.

Edited by AdamB
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Just putting this here.

http://www.ukstarletowners.com/topic/98746-pro-gram-billet-main-caps-toyota-13l-4efte/

Was wondering it would be good to know which main cap broke on engines that have had this issue. On the pictures above the user said it was cap no: 1, closest to the timing belt.

Would be good to know if this a common trend on engines running at this power level for future reference and you have been warned, if your going for this sort of power level, just keep this in mind. I don’t think it’s worth the risk especially when you put in this much money into build.

I have emailed arp regarding 12mm head stud’s and I’m gonna pilot it on a spare cylinder block and head to see it can be done with no issues. I cannot risk trying it on my engine as there is a lot of work already done to it. Stay tuned guy’s I’m gonna pulling the motor out soon and start to collect the parts required.

Sounds good - look forward to it :) Good on you for trying different things.

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  • 3 months later...

I've also broke main caps, on the timing side. The crank also bent 27thou.

Also stripped 3rd gear before this.

Mainly daily driven on a 4e vf35@ 1.5 bar. I done lots of miles and a small amount of drag days.

I don't see how a girdle will strengthen the main caps as you couldn't have the surface between the two mated to increase thickness for strength. It would need spaced and I do believe that would strengthen the block slightly.

I'm in a dilemma myself what the best solution is.

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