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Forged daily build from 55kw to 200kw+ (2023-01 updated)


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Installing new turbo and decided just to check my rod bearing condition.

These are ACL bearings, pushed 180kw.

Anyone got similar failures? Crankshaft is measured and it is still in spec (rod 39.995mm), main bearings looks more or less the same. Always used 10w60 oil.

First photo failure point, top rod bearing

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  • MegstuBMW changed the title to Forged daily build from 55kw to 200kw (2022-01 updated)
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Oh dear. Could be the oil grand. Looks like they have over heated.

I did see a build where the lad had used 10w50 grade oil, and recorded a pressure drop, plus notable pressure surges due to the 4e running only a four cam oil pump. A good 10w40 grade oil like mobile one oil should do, along side a oil cooler and thermostate. Just to be safe. 

People also reduce the size of the port from the block that feeds the head. This is located on the left hand side/end of the block, it uses one of head bolt holes. The oil flow rate/volume delivery to the head is alot, by doing this it helps maintain the bottom end pressure making the oil pump pressure surges not as noticeable. 

This looks very much like detonation damage. Normally produced by over clocking the turbo. 

Are you monitoring inlet charge temps in the inlet manifold?. 

Running a oil pressure gauge will also alert you to any further problems with the shells. Oil pressure would have droped noticeably by this point. Also rod ends have started to seize up. 

Edited by Sam44
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I have oil pressure gauge, as far as I looked in it pressure was stable, but of course, I have not logged it, probbably it would be smart decision to wire pressure reading in to ecu and log it.

Also, now installing new oil pump, old one has some seriuos shaft play.

I got detonation indicator, it starts to show something when engine is close to redline.. not sure how bad that was, but also, that small turbo was working hard and coild cause detonation.

Inlet temp is fine, loged it alot.

Also I have not noticed oil pressure drop in idle, and I have no idea when this started, that is most annoying thing, I drove hard with this engine so many times with no noticable issues.

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Yeh oil pressure drop would have been more noticeable at low rpm. 

Was the oil return port on the oil pump blocked with sealant used for the sump seal. I will put up pics of it, I have come across a few 4efte engines that seem to have failed due to this, all have oil pump shaft play (oil pump failure).

One thing I'm being told is these engines don't like things like rev limmiters/launch control and fuel cut. All down to the combustion chamber design/ poor denso injectors design.

This and the head gasket are screaming detonation/ over worked turbo to me, but oil temp and pressure could be a factor to. 

That the the oil pump bearing supply port 

 

This is the exit port that I've found to get sealant blocking it bottom picture. Leading to oil pump failures.

 

 

16423310297791677071890.jpg

16423311933592000810169.jpg

Edited by Sam44
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Oil pump port looks all right, but this pump is old, done 150000 miles before turbo, so maybe it is just tired one.

I definetly done a lot of launch control and flatshift.. celebrated new year with launch control :-D

Thinking now about oil sump baffle mod, oil starvation could be a problem too.. so many thoughts and not sure what to do.

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Are you running the ep91 two step sump. This was introduced because the early gt sump was prone for oil starvation in long fast corners. The two step sump is pretty good at oil control. I'm running a home made windage plate also. Introduced by the previous owner. 

I hope you get to the bottom of all the problems. Keep us updated. 

Edited by Sam44
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15 hours ago, MegstuBMW said:

Installing new turbo and decided just to check my rod bearing condition.

These are ACL bearings, pushed 180kw.

Anyone got similar failures? Crankshaft is measured and it is still in spec (rod 39.995mm), main bearings looks more or less the same. Always used 10w60 oil.

First photo failure point, top rod bearing

20220115_190801.thumb.jpg.c4c5baad7fc60b1a9f0a0abdc8cfb0c9.jpg20220115_193754.thumb.jpg.4cbcb25c87c9da75f2e0bccdcb82511b.jpg20220115_193806.thumb.jpg.91e19b8dbaeb8d34026dd9215f95a969.jpg

Not sure the oil grade helped, according to the 4efe owners manual the recommended oils are shown below:

20220116_150105.thumb.jpg.12cd5ee61fad77472eeff31180661d17.jpg

Most people seem to run 10w 40. The tolerances for the engine will be designed to use a range of oil grades but straying from this can lead to problems. When increasing grade the oil pressure should  increase also but flow must surely decrease. The bypass valve may be able to even the pressure out though.

I would say from comparing them to some online charts that it looks like fatigue failure and / or lack of oil / too tight oil bearing clearance. Detonation is a real possibility (Matt berry's Youtube video mentioned this). They don't look to have got that hot (not blue) but could have lead to disaster. 

I also found references on the forum to bearings and that some prefer the genuine Toyota items to ACL, although there must be plenty of 4efte out there with ACL. Toyota bearings are available in more sizes than ACL. Were the bearing clearances correct when you built the engine?

 

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As Claymore said, a lot of people forget that if it’s still stock engine, you should use the grades Toyota suggest as the clearances were done appropriately from factory for this. 
 

We’ve all been there, years and years ago when I wasn’t fully clued up I wanged 10-60 in mine, it was fine but technically not the right thing to do even tho you’ll think it’s better. 
 

Fuel cut limiter is fine on 4E, they aren’t the biggest fan of an ignition cut tho (must engines aren’t) so that wouldn’t help if it you had your launch setup like that (again most do as they like the noise and flames lol)

The ACL thing came about as you can get ACLs made in China (newer part #) and the original flavour made in Australia, they are different part numbers so there is a difference between the two. 

Ive used both in builds without issues however 

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When I built this engine everything was measured and in spec, crankshaft is still in spec right now after all this.

About oil grade, maybe 10w60 is too thick, but most performance engine builders go with at least one step thicker oil, mostly because oil gets warmer and at the same time thiner in high loads, so I think it is not a bad idea to go one step thicker, of cours oil cooler would be good idea too.. do not have any at the moment.

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Tooday made some mods to oil sump and done a simple test, compaired oem sump and new modified by filling with watter and mooving in my hands. Oem sump compaired to new one looks so bad controling liquid level in pickup location, I am thinking, maybe that was my bigest issue. I drove hard few times in a race track.

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Also, does 4e engines has oil return from head problem? I noticed that when I drive longer at high rpm, breather spits some good ammount of oil.

Thinking about making additional port straight from head, intake side and down to block or sump..

Edited by MegstuBMW
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Could be crank case pressure. that is some thing these do get. That's what I believe the windage tray in mine is aimed at. 

I have read builds were people have restricted the oil flow to the head. I am told it's alot. Helping the bottom end pressure and flow rate. There is a nice sump mod on one of the other builds I'm really impressed with. 

I'm running ACL in the starbo at the min (standard size). I will check them out after 6month on the road and report back. I'm running 1bar on a tdo4 hybrid, using 10w40 modile one engine oil. If I go any higher on the boost the inlet temps start to increase. 

I am running modified standard Toyota 4e connecting rods. 

Edited by Sam44
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Windage tray you mean in a sump? It is to keep oil in a botom of the sump.

More crank case pressure is always there when you make boost and it goes in to the head through oil return galeries, in different direction than oil that wants to return, so at some point it can push returning oil back to head and keep that oil all up resulting in empty sump. Thing that is a little hard to check.

Sump design that you showed, good idea to increase volume, but I do not see any support for cornering that I think is bigest problem with oem sump.

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Yeh the tray stops oil misting (increasing crank case pressure) oil hitting the rotating parts, allowing oil to drop down from these parts and the head keeping the oil in the sump. With this sump mod (oil baffles could be much better), and a oil cooler/thermo things I'm hoping will be pretty controlled.

The engine came out of a track day car that ran for over 2 years on a td04hl 16t hybrid turbo at 250hp. When I replaced the ACL shells in the engine there was nothing wrong with them. It ran with an oil cooler and thermostat and a funky oil catch can setup, designed to keep crank case pressure in vacuum. 

2 step later ep91 sump. 

 

s-l1600.jpg

Earlier ep80/82 sump 

s-l1600 (1).jpg

 

Hope you get the issues sorted. These motors will put you to the test. 

Edited by Sam44
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12 hours ago, RobSR said:

The ACL thing came about as you can get ACLs made in China (newer part #) and the original flavour made in Australia, they are different part numbers so there is a difference between the two. 

Ive used both in builds without issues however 

Didn't know that there were different versions. Thanks.

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43 minutes ago, Pikey009 said:

Interesting read this. Is the Glanza or GT sump favourable?

Go on tgtt web site type in starlet Vs gt sump. Some good info. It won't let me post up the web link on here. Suppose because there rival sites. 

The later ep sump is a superseded versions of the gt sump, the early ep80/82 sump was prone to oil surge in fast corners. Best get them baffled asap. The oil pump pickup pipes/strainers are different for both sump types, in case your thinking of changing from 1 to the other. 

Edited by Sam44
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10 hours ago, Pikey009 said:

Just thinking if my latest attempt to seal the sump doesn’t work then maybe I look at my options as it may be warped. Hoping it’s just the sealant though 

When I removed the sump on mine I noticed that the corner of the top lip was bent from tapping in a screw driver to brake the seal. Managed to hammer it back flat again. They do sell repro EP91 style pans on eBay for about £50, not sure on the quality or fitment though. Might help if a Glanza one is unobtanium.

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  • MegstuBMW changed the title to Forged daily build from 55kw to 200kw (2022-03 updated)
  • MegstuBMW changed the title to Forged daily build from 55kw to 200kw+ (2023-01 updated)

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