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ive just this min seen this, sorry about the late reply, and thank you for the offer of your help. 

the map sensor on the starlet i have boosted has the part number 89421-20190 blue lable. its off a few different lexus and toyota turboed vehicles. 

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On 12/7/2020 at 12:56 PM, richardc9052 said:

The det3 is the better option if your just 4efe turbo. Get one with the built in map sensor and also use a 4efte map sensor and 4efte injectors. 
The det3 can clamp the analogue signal, but with the 4efte map sensor you wont have to worry about it.

If you need any help getting it running I can remote in and set it up so you can drive it safely to get it mapped.

Just wanted to check on how to clamp the analogue signal. Could only find the "clamp VSS frequency signal" in the piggyback software settings initially.

But I've had another look and the only thing I could find is the analogue output configuration and there is an "Analogue out max." setting for voltage. Is this how you clamp the analogue signal? 

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It’s getting more and more frustrating seeing terrible advice and wild claims posted.

For the love of god any owners reading this please run a vac referenced FPR on your boosted setups.

P.S still waiting for examples of all these failures for every reason under the sun 🤔 There is going to be some real catastrophic  failures if some of this advice is followed 

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20 hours ago, Claymore said:

Just wanted to check on how to clamp the analogue signal. Could only find the "clamp VSS frequency signal" in the piggyback software settings initially.

But I've had another look and the only thing I could find is the analogue output configuration and there is an "Analogue out max." setting for voltage. Is this how you clamp the analogue signal? 

not sure, keep us posted as to what you find. it certainly sounds like that would be it.  

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this is how i mapped the d16 turbo standard n/a map sensor. ON THE ECU DET3 MASTER PIGGY BACK

first i used analog 1 input/output on the map sensor (this shows voltage 0-5v) 

then i narrowed my tables resolution in the setup menu to the correct redline rpm (ignition menu) and voltage of the map sensor (this allows for better/finer fuel/voltage step adjustments). with the low table resolution this is a key area. 

i also set my voltage out min and max to my tables resolution. 

i then used the voltage offset at -1v output in the setup menu to give a constant -1v drop on the output signal. using bigger injectors what i also found this to do, other than not hitting fuel cut, was that because the baseline output voltage was lowwer@idle. the larger injectors started very close to 0 (incremental adjustment value used) on the fueling table. the injectors were 2.5x bigger than stock units. I also set the voltage incremental adjustment Down 1 setting to .0098v from .01v

i then had to use the forced start up voltage option at 1.4ish volts to allow the car to start up when cold (coke), until the engine hit operating temp. this was due to the lad not using an idle valve on a aftermarket throttle body.

there were alterations made to the ignitions table made in and out of boost pressure.

he was using a T3/T4 turbo at .8bar  of boost. it has just been dynoed yesterday @ 220+hp

i was waiting for him to shake it down and get the all clear from the dyno before i shared just to make sure there is no catastrophic failures. 

this car is also running a constant 4bar fuel pressure. all good reported back from the dyno, hes loving it. 

my personal opinion of the piggy back ecu. it is what it is a very cheap option. the aem and emanage are much better, this is reflected in the price difference. i think that extra hp would have been able to have been unlocked using the aem that i have been using. 

 

 

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On 12/22/2020 at 3:52 AM, Sam44 said:

this is how i mapped the d16 turbo standard n/a map sensor. ON THE ECU DET3 MASTER PIGGY BACK

first i used analog 1 input/output on the map sensor (this shows voltage 0-5v) 

then i narrowed my tables resolution in the setup menu to the correct redline rpm (ignition menu) and voltage of the map sensor (this allows for better/finer fuel/voltage step adjustments). with the low table resolution this is a key area. 

i also set my voltage out min and max to my tables resolution. 0.88v to 5v. 

i then used the voltage offset at -1v output in the setup menu to give a constant -1v drop on the output signal. using bigger injectors what i also found this to do, other than not hitting fuel cut, was that because the baseline output voltage was lowwer@idle. the larger injectors started very close to 0 (incremental adjustment value used) on the fueling table. the injectors were 2.5x bigger than stock units.    

i then had to use the forced start up voltage option at 1.4ish volts to allow the car to start up when cold (coke), until the engine hit operating temp. this was due to the lad not using an idle valve on a aftermarket throttle body.

there were alterations made to the ignitions table made in and out of boost pressure.

he was using a T3/T4 turbo at .8bar  of boost. it has just been dynoed yesterday @ 220+hp

i was waiting for him to shake it down and get the all clear from the dyno before i shared just to make sure there is no catastrophic failures. 

this car is also running a constant 4bar fuel pressure. all good reported back from the dyno, hes loving it. 

my personal opinion of the piggy back ecu. it is what it is a very cheap option. the aem and emanage are much better, this is reflected in the price difference. i think that extra hp would have been able to have been unlocked using the aem that i have been using. 

 

 

Did the det3 have an internal map sensor?

What was the rating of the standard Honda Map sensor, 1bar?

Another car you have been involved with that isn't vacuum referenced to the FPR? Even with the addition of a turbo?

Even the 4efe is vacuum referenced for the fpr to maintain constant fuel pressure from idle to red line. I'll deffo be running a reference for my build.

The force startup voltage doesn't work for cold start enrichment as far as I can work out from the DET3 instructions its to prevent error codes. Also it has no parameters to change back when the engine is at operating temp:

"The possibility to set the value of the device’s initial voltage is an additional option. DET3 needs about 7ms for the initialization and to start working. During this process, voltage of the analog output equals 0V. It is possible to enforce a given initial voltage during the initialization process. It may be required for some ECU, which at this time is reading the voltage from a sensor (MAP sensor, MAF sensor), and in case of 0V, to report an error. In such situations, the initial voltage value should be set to the sensor’s reading when the engine is turned off." 

The only way I can see to make it work is to splice into the coolant temp' sensor and use it as a correction input on the fuel table. It can then be used to add a percentage value to the fuel cell value when cold and as the coolant temp. increases the enrichment can be stopped.

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1 hour ago, Claymore said:

Did the det3 have an internal map sensor?

What was the rating of the standard Honda Map sensor, 1bar?

Another car you have been involved with that isn't vacuum referenced to the FPR? Even with the addition of a turbo?

Even the 4efe is vacuum referenced for the fpr to maintain constant fuel pressure from idle to red line. I'll deffo be running a reference for my build.

yeh its the det3+ i believe, it had an internal map sensor. not sure if the honda denso map sensor is a 1bar, but its off the b16y8 engine.  yeh its up to you to run a reference signal. 

this build did have high pressure screw on fuel line/fastenings (which id recommend) for over 3.5bar of fuel pressure. 

ill put up some information ive found in a tunning book on the subject. hopefully it will help ease any worries.  

here is how i use the fpr as described at the top of the page. fixed pressure. 

 

regulators.jpg

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1 minute ago, Sam44 said:

yeh its the det3+ i believe, it had an internal map sensor. not sure if the honda denso map sensor is a 1bar, but its off the b16y8 engine.  yeh its up to you to run a reference signal. 

this build did have high pressure screw on fuel line/fastenings (which id recommend) for over 3.5bar of fuel pressure. 

ill put up some information ive found in a tunning book on the subject. hopefully it will help ease any worries.  

Lol, I'll take the advice of RobSR (experienced tuner) over a forum regurgitated book reference any day.

You worry me sometimes.

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1 hour ago, Claymore said:

Lol, I'll take the advice of RobSR (experienced tuner) over a forum regurgitated book reference any day.

You worry me sometimes.

the book was written by graham bell look him up. 

and of course its up to you how you do it. 

some more use full info 

 

epram.jpg

now because we use a map sensor on the 4e engine this references inlet manifold pressure. which directly has an affect on the fuel volume injected by the injector vacuum sucks more out/pressure pushes it back in/restricts the flow. we have this under control.    

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On 12/22/2020 at 2:17 PM, Sam44 said:

the book was written by graham bell look him up. 

and of course its up to you how you do it. 

some more use full info 

 

epram.jpg

Graham bell was a skier dude 🤣 No wonder!

You mean: A. graham bell? Modern engine tuning? (first published 1989) or 4 stroke performance engine tuning, turbo tuning etc. (yes I can google)

regulators.jpg

I get that the author is an experienced tuner, however the method you have chosen from that book also says it is for a naturally aspirated engine, choosing this option has led you to what I can only describe as an "unorthodox" fuelling setup that has never been required before. This is not what the author wanted. I would also be wary about the advice in that passage about adjusting fuel pressure on the fly at the track to compensate for barometric pressure differences. Ulp! The things like the addition of a rising rate regulator along with the existing one also point to the age of this book (modern adjustable fpr's would replace the existing unit).  Basic lessons / theories still ring true but tuning methods seem out of date.

I'll second that sentiment, its up to you how you do it too.

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any way i hope your not to stressed about this all, and the information on the det3 tunner helps you. its working so far on the honda and passed dyno with good results. i had it fully road mapped in after around 3week. 

if you could share any finding on the 4efe+t when you do yours would be very much appreciated, im going to get an e11 running on 1 in the new year.   

 

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2 hours ago, Sam44 said:

now because we use a map sensor on the 4e engine this references inlet manifold pressure. which directly has an affect on the fuel volume injected by the injector vacuum sucks more out/pressure pushes it back in/restricts the flow. we have this under control.    

 

I feel it's only fair that I get a chance to reply to your edit: 

I see this as a problem. The Map sensor references the manifold pressure, telling the ecu to add more or less fuel electronically (and also influences the timing).

Without a vacuum reference to the fpr to counteract manifold pressure changes, the fuel pressure regulator now creates more fuel pressure than the base setting in vacuum at low load (vacuum sucking out fuel) and less pressure than the base setting on boost (boost pressure pushing fuel back in) I believe its called delta 🤓.

Surely it just makes the tuning potential worse? Raising fuel pressure at low load where it isn't required (leading to very short injector pulse requirements and small injectors) and reducing fuel pressure as boost increases where it is required (requiring longer injector opening times, larger injectors and higher capacity fuel pump requirements)? 

If your lucky you'll be able to tune around this problem if you have an over specced fuel system and full control of the ECU.

At worst you will run lean and melt the engine. Hence my decision to run referenced.

2 hours ago, Sam44 said:

 

any way i hope your not to stressed about this all, and the information on the det3 tunner helps you. its working so far on the honda and passed dyno with good results. i had it fully road mapped in after around 3week. 

if you could share any finding on the 4efe+t when you do yours would be very much appreciated, im going to get an e11 running on 1 in the new year.   

 

Not worried at all, I've got a plan I'm happy with. I've researched alot. 

Nearly finished my plug 'n' play harness for the install  and have explored the det 3 tuning software to figure out the settings already. Its slightly different to your description above as I will be using a 2 bar MAP sensor so no problems with boost cut / n/a sensor not reading boost etc. I'll update my build thread with the results.

Can't see how the ignition side of the gen 3 corolla will work with the det 3 as there is only one ignition signal input available but I'm sure you'll figure it out.

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interesting so you think the fpr responds 1:1 with the fueling table. if not how reliable is the fueling adjustments being made. 

a very valid point on high loads on the injectors and pumps and also injector sizing. 

 

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On 12/23/2020 at 8:07 AM, Sam44 said:

interesting so you think the fpr responds 1:1 with the fueling table. 

if not how reliable is the fueling adjustments being made. 

a very valid point on high loads on the injectors and pumps and also injector sizing. 

No, not the point I was trying to make.

My point was about fuel pressure on and off boost regarding vacuum reference. Preserving the desired fuel pressure as manifold pressure changes.

Wasn't thinking about ecu. I'm going with "reliable enough".

I'm sure you've got some point to make about it. Probably to do with your vacuum delay ball thing? you said before about the map responding at a different rate to the reg? Relocating the map sensor to the manifold for better response. etc....

But the thing to bear in mind is does it actually make a difference worth bothering with? You must think so or you wouldn't have bothered. Might be spending alot of effort for what others consider minimal gains whilst adding complications and flirting with danger.

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On 12/23/2020 at 8:18 AM, Sam44 said:

sorry i just edited again. interesting. 

me too,

I'll be honest, with the recent discovery of the N/A map sensor and possible fcd on your car, I'd be seriously looking into the engine management side of things before continuing, the management setup could cause some of the problems you are dealing with that could be better addressed in a different way, fixing the illness not the symptom, but just my opinion.

You build just confuses me sometimes! Lol

I'll do it my way, you do it yours.

Don't want to argue about this anymore, I've said my bit.

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all this can be altered to a improved level. for different engine systems  to work with each other better, allowing better engine response. ultimately leading to one conclusion. but have a play with the system when you get it going and see how efficient you can get it. this will result in hp gains. 

have a look into engine efficiency and related fuel pressures. 

of course there is a balancing act here as always.   

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1 minute ago, Sam44 said:

all this can be altered to a improved level to be worked with better, allowing better engine response. ultimately leading to one conclusion. but have a play with the system when you get it going and see how efficient you can get it. this will result in hp gains. 

have a look into engine efficiency and related fuel pressures.     

With an adjustable fpr (which will be vac referenced) I can experiment with different fuel pressures. Or let the dyno tuner guide me most likely.

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the det3 is not massively adjustable like the aem and can lead to some frustrations and ?????. 

i got the d16 honda running as smooth as i could but there were little areas i was unhappy with but the owner didn't really notice.

for me personally peak hp is not even half of what im after from my vehicle.  

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1 hour ago, Sam44 said:

im also going to try and setup the output of the original map sensor to accept boost pressure like i did on the turboed civic d16y8. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

The problems as I see them is, when the 1bar sensor reaches 0psi boost (1bar atmos, at sea level, relative humidity etc.) the signal produced is 5v. If it receives 1psi boost or 100 psi boost the voltage stays at 5v.

The ECU has a fit at 5v so you can use an offset in the signal (say -1v) so now we hit boost, the signal is a constant 4v. This signal is acceptable to the Toyota ecu but whenever the engine is on boost there is no increase in voltage to differentiate between 1psi or 100psi.

So you will have to add or subtract the necessary voltage to the constant 4v signal to increase or decrease the fuelling from the Toyota ECU. This may be ok if the det 3 has enough scope to get the fuelling right, if not the 4v + 0.5v you add won't fuel enough for example.

The other issue is if you use this signal for load also (the signal that moves you around the fuelling and ignition tables in the piggy back) when you are on boost the cursor will just go up and down on the 5v line of the table corresponding to the revs, no influence from boost pressure so if you have 1psi (5v) at 2000rpm or 100psi (still 5v) at 2000rpm you will be in the same cell. Obviously this would require seriously different fuelling.

You could use an inbuilt 4bar map det 3 and use its inbuilt map sensor for load. This would move you around the map with a 4v signal to modify. 

Let us know how you get on.

You mentioned that your current setup has a vac sensor and FCD and piggyback. It's not that different from the setup above. The vac sensor is voltage offset / clamped by the FCD (otherwise what's the point in fitting it?), sent to the piggyback where it is most likely moved around the table by the inbuilt map sensor of the AEM whilst the piggy adds or subtracts the necessary voltage to the signal to fuel it. Just a thought I had over xmas when you mentioned it. Might not be the setup at all but its the only logical reason to use the components he did!?

Just to add, if this is right, its a bad idea and I don't recommend it. I'm just thinking out loud. :crazy:

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no mine has a more modern blue labled 2bar denso map sensor from a hylux on it. 

i know the civic denso sensor didnt hit 5v at any point it maxed out around 4.2v at 6psi/8psi if i remember correct (thats the voltage from the map sensor into the det3) we think this is the original sensor for the d16y8 engine but he did get the car in bits with alot of the turbo parts already purchased ready to just install, it was a ongoing turbo build. 

i just adjusted the tables for best response on the det3 making the most and smoothest power i could.

but yeh your right if the sensor tops out at max voltage then its no good for a piggy back referencing load. 

i have been wondering at what voltage fuel cut comes about. 

i might have to use the det3 in fuel implant mode, which does not look to hard to be honest, and looks to be a much better way to use these.

i have been having a good read up on there web site.  

one thing that became apparent on both my starlet and the civic was the presence of an alfa N style algorithm linked to the TPS. this became problematic with the low table resolution of the det3 in piggy back mode, and the aem when using a cat and oem lamba to preserve the life spam of the high flow cat. 

i did swap the ep91 4efe ecu, with the ae101 4efe gen1 ecu (almost plug and play) with the 4efte throttle & tps & i might add does not have a coded key mobilizer luckily, also the same ecu design as the ep80 in the video,  that uses a true speed density map with the tps only affecting idle and wot conditions. a much easier ecu to get the fueling right.

 ive since sorted this and im back on the faster processing speed of the ep91 4efe ecu. 

the old saying was used alot on the civic FUELING FOR SAFTY!!!! which i personally hate. (basically over fueling) hes going to monitor his oil grade/contaminents, and egt over the next 12month  

im also very interested in your mpg once finished?

 are you going to run a cat?. 

   

 

 

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17 hours ago, Sam44 said:

no mine has a more modern blue labled 2bar denso map sensor from a hylux on it. 

i know the civic denso sensor didnt hit 5v at any point it maxed out around 4.2v at 6psi/8psi if i remember correct (thats the voltage from the map sensor into the det3) we think this is the original sensor for the d16y8 engine but he did get the car in bits with alot of the turbo parts already purchased ready to just install, it was a ongoing turbo build. 

i just adjusted the tables for best response on the det3 making the most and smoothest power i could.

but yeh your right if the sensor tops out at max voltage then its no good for a piggy back referencing load. 

i have been wondering at what voltage fuel cut comes about. 

i might have to use the det3 in fuel implant mode, which does not look to hard to be honest, and looks to be a much better way to use these.

i have been having a good read up on there web site.  

one thing that became apparent on both my starlet and the civic was the presence of an alfa N style algorithm linked to the TPS. this became problematic with the low table resolution of the det3 in piggy back mode, and the aem when using a cat and oem lamba to preserve the life spam of the high flow cat. 

i did swap the ep91 4efe ecu, with the ae101 4efe gen1 ecu (almost plug and play) with the 4efte throttle & tps & i might add does not have a coded key mobilizer luckily, also the same ecu design as the ep80 in the video,  that uses a true speed density map with the tps only affecting idle and wot conditions. a much easier ecu to get the fueling right.

 ive since sorted this and im back on the faster processing speed of the ep91 4efe ecu. 

the old saying was used alot on the civic FUELING FOR SAFTY!!!! which i personally hate. (basically over fueling) hes going to monitor his oil grade/contaminents, and egt over the next 12month  

im also very interested in your mpg once finished?

 are you going to run a cat?.

My main post was regarding the Toyota 1bar sensor and trying to use it on a 4efe+t.

In response: If the Toyota Hylux sensor you are using (that says vacuum sensor on it) can see 1 bar atmos and 1 bar boost (2bar sensor) why is there a FCD fitted to the vehicle? If you boost more than 1bar then you will be in "no mans land" as I described above? Seems unnecessary unless it is to add an offset voltage to the signal if the AEM can't do it? Just seems weird.

I remember reading in the Jeff Hartman book that some Honda map sensors (used on N/A) can read up to 0.8 bar boost. Looks like this was what you had. The problem maybe that the 0psi voltage (3v? ish) when sent to the honda ecu causes boost cut like when the Toyota 4efe ecu sees 5v?ish. Dunno.

The point I was trying to get across is to choose the correct size (2bar, 3bar, 4bar etc) MAP sensor for the intended boost level. With enough room to spare for the cold, dense weather days.

Yes I see what you mean with the TPS influencing fuelling in the Toyota ECU as a "correction" to the MAP signal used for load. My previous car had the basic tps switch (idle, nothing and then full throttle). When off idle switch: it used a flap style AFM with NB O2 feedback (closed loop) and on full throttle switch it went open loop and only used speed density (AFM vs rpm). All very 80's technology. 

Not sure about fuel cut voltage on the 4efe, must be around 4.5v or higher if the Glanza is anything to go by. Should be easy to test with a 1bar sensor plugged in (N/A+T) and the piggy scale set to volts....then change back to a 2bar obviously.

Yes, I will have to run a cat for MOT / street legality. 200 cell sports type. I will also be using the O.E. NB lambda as long as it doesn't intrude too much regarding short term / long term fuel trims in (closed loop) that are contrary to the requested fuel trims in the piggy back. (I have actually put a switch into the plug n play harness I made to disable the NB O2 signal to the Toyota ECU if necessary 😉).

I will try to record my mpg figures but as this is a weekend toy and not a daily driver it's a low priority for my build. I'll see what she does on cruise for a laugh but I'm not spending hours of time and money to develop that side of the build. With 2 map sets available in the piggy, a lean cruise / low boost table could be built if necessary as an easy / uncomplicated half fix. Press the button again and full boost party mode enabled!

Still at the beginning of the build really for me, but looking forward to it more than ever.

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the 4efte inlet will help delay the spool up of the ct9a turbo your running also. so this should help mpg slightly. 

mine has not got an fcd in the system. just the stated map sensor. 

i was wondering on the voltage that induces fuel cut?.

also why is the hks fcd adjustable does this bleed off voltage or clamp it?. if so would it be usable on the 4efe 1bar sensor. 

all these questions are out there. 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Sam44 said:

mine has not got an fcd in the system. just the stated map sensor. 

i was wondering on the voltage that induces fuel cut?.

also why is the hks fcd adjustable does this bleed off voltage or clamp it?. if so would it be usable on the 4efe 1bar sensor. 

all these questions are out there. 

At the beginning of the thread you said you thought it had an FCD. Glad it doesn't. This is the only reason I keep mentioning it.

There were different types of FCD some people say they are a voltage clamp (i.e. no modifications of sensor signal output voltage until a set point and then the voltage is clamped at 4.5v for example). This removes boost cut but puts you in "no mans land", boost increases, no more voltage increase and no safety net. Too much boost, engine go boom.

Some FCD's are a signal conditioner constantly, they remove a set amount of voltage throughout the sensor 0-5v range. same as an offset in the det3. So 1v becomes 0.8v 2v becomes 1.8v etc.

The voltage modifiers won't stop a sensor going out of range and not reporting boost increase: i.e. 5v flatlined on boost it just clamps it at 4.5v with no increase as boost increases. Or turns it down from flatlined 5v on boost to 4.5v with no increase in voltage as boost increases either.

Won't work for 1bar sensor on NA+T but was used back in the day to defeat / delay boost cut on Glanza's running close to limit.

And again, none of this is recommended.

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