TURBOROLLA (4efe to 4efte ep91) SWAP

[Claymore]

4 hours ago, Frankieflowers said:

Which custom manifold do you suggest to buy?

The standard 4efte exhaust manifold can be ported by grinding / porting out the restrictions, I did it to one for my build. It will help prevent problems for a small boost increase but not the best option. I also know you don't like to modify rare Toyota parts 😉 (which is fine )

The CT9 Tubular manifold Tuning Developments sells seems ok as the first upgrade, Hopefully someone using one will comment on its fit and function.

If you want the top level then WEPR make excellent products. But not sure how they will fit in a corolla engine swap vehicle.

4 hours ago, Frankieflowers said:

You pointed an arrow on our custom hot pipe. What do you have to say about it?? It does exactly what the other half pipes I’ve seen do. Thanks

This pipe is where I would weld the fitting for the second boost gauge hose to measure pressure before the intercooler.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Claymore

[Sam44]

I will read threw this now a comment soon. Has claymore spotted a crack on the intercooler. 

If you can get aureate info on what I've asked for, I will have a good idea if you have boost leaks. 

How To find out at what engine rpm the boost is happening at = get the car into 3rd/4th gear allow the rpm to drop to 1500 now go foot flat on the throttle pedal. Watch your boost gauge and the road, reference at what rpm the boost hits peak, also at what engine rpm the boost starts to build (positive pressure). 

To find the right gear to achieve this. The engine rpm needs to increase steady/slowish (underload) this allows the turbo to out pace the engine.

Doing this, but being alot smoother on the throttle, you will also feel your torque curv and any flat areas in the rpm, this will feel like the rpm is increasing but the mph slows down in this area (pulling power drops). This might happen in waves going up the rpm range, but should always be in the same rpm bands as the test is repeated. A good G meter also helps to confirm what you are feeling. 

We will get it back do not stress. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Sam44

[Frankieflowers]

13 hours ago, Claymore said:

The first thing to do before changing turbo (we call the larger compressor wheel install a "hybrid turbo") and ecu, fuel pressure reg, is to find the problem you now have.

Firstly, what did you change on the car before the problem occurred? Not being rude but it is always the first thing to check and if it was only the intercooler and pipe work then that is where to look. Check for leaks from hose clamps, intake manifold ports, Dump valve can leak (remove and block the pipes, go for drive to check), check intercooler for cracks etc. Some people do a "smoke test" to see if there are any leaks in the intake system. Also might be worth doing a compression test. Could remove the exhaust pipe from the turbo and check the wastegate port hasn't cracked too.

If the intercooler is oversized it would add a delay before the boost reached its requested pressure, but it should still get to the desired pressure. If the intercooler is too small / restrictive it will restrict the flow of air and cause a pressure drop preventing the boost reaching its correct pressure. What size core did you buy?

If you want to test the pressure drop you need a second boost gauge. First install both on the intake manifold port and compare the readings. The gauges should read the same. Then leave one attached to intake manifold and add the other to a port on the hose as close to the turbo outlet as possible (red arrow pipe). Then compare the boost readings when at full throttle / boost. If you want to only test the intercooler drop (not pipework as well) you have to install the gauge fittings in the intercooler end tanks, but this is extreme and unnecessary. I would talk to your tuner and see if he can help, they do this sort of stuff all the time, would be a lot safer and easier to control on a dyno. If you still have the bigger intercooler, you could swap it at the dyno and do a power run to compare.

One other thing I will say is that the stock 4efte exhaust manifold has a quite bad restriction (green arrow bad, red arrow ok) in the no.3 runner (and some restrictions in 1,2,4 as well), most people don't recommend running high boost levels with the manifold as it can cause piston ring land damage.

You pointed an arrow on our custom hot pipe. What do you have to say about it? It does exactly what the other half pipes I’ve seen do. Thanks

[Frankieflowers]

We will get more into the exhaust manifold topic later. First I want to tell you what I did today.

so I told you that as soon as I tried the car after installing the intercooler and the new set up the car was completely different. I didn’t feel any weird noise but there was just no power. We got to this point already. 
my partner was busy with work because we have a shop and he told me to wait after New Year’s Eve. I am pretty stubborn and I have to leave tomorrow to see my girlfriend in the fields and I definitely didn’t wanna leave with the car running like that. I didn’t wanna wait. 
it went in my garage and took down the new front bumper that you don’t want to torture too much because it’s fiberglass and I just spent loads of money to make it nice and painted. I took it off and I took down the intercooler. I was lucky to find a company that does professional soldiering and has many important clients in the car business. So I went there and they analyzed it and noticed that there was a little crack but just to be sure they welded every main welding from scratch. In amazing job. I had the feeling that it wasn’t just that because it tiny crack won’t reduce much power and I knew there was something else.

when I got home after dinner in the cold I went back down in the garage and put back on the intercooler. First thing I noticed is that the right silicon hose wasn’t tied on the external side. So I took one of my nice ABA hose clips and put it on. I checked the left side IC input where are the 290° hoses touch each other and it looked like the steel clip was keeping them both joined on the aluminum cut we made to keep them together. So I put the bumper on and went for a ride. Wow! my car was back to be what it was before! Wheels were spinning in every gear. So I went on the main road and went for gas. I was so happy! On the way back suddenly I heard like a balloon blowing and I was like f###! I was hoping it wasn’t anything bad but I knew it was a hose that blew off a pipe. So I stopped and I checked. I was right. I noticed that the 90° that gets out of the new hot pipe didn’t have the steel clip on the external side. It was completely off so I put it back on. I went for another ride and boom again! I stopped again and I checked. This time the 90° that gets out the intercooler on the left side blew off. Yes, the steel clip wasn’t keeping them together but only one of them. So I put it back on and went home. I took a few steel clips and put them on where they were missing. I didn’t blow off again but I still feel a whistle that might be one of the steel clips not tight enough. 
I know you guys have a lot of experience and I don’t but I have intuition. I knew this wasn’t about intercooler set up and the turbo lag. I am very happy that I can enjoy the car before installing a new ECU and tuning it. Tomorrow I will go see my partner and I will explain what happened and I will make sure he checks every steel clip before I leave town.

@Claymore @Sam44

[Claymore]

22 hours ago, Claymore said:

......... Check for leaks from hose clamps, intake manifold ports, Dump valve can leak (remove and block the pipes, go for drive to check), check intercooler for cracks etc. Some people do a "smoke test" to see if there are any leaks in the intake system........

Think I did ok then! 😜.

Glad you got it sorted Frankie. Now the modifying can begin.

[Sam44]

Yeh modifying is full of days like this.  

[Frankieflowers]

On 12/30/2021 at 11:41 AM, Claymore said:

What size core did you buy?

Here I am for an update. So technically I don’t know the size but it must be a stage 2 size. I couldn’t read it on the intercooler but I must check again to let you know.

I called the company that does special aluminum welding also with laser in case I needed it. They checked it with the liquids and found out a little crack and went on the original welding lines to make sure it was OK. I went home and put it back on. Here’s the point. When I put it back on I realized that the intake side silicon didn’t have both sides hose clips. My partner and didn’t put it on every point because he thought it would stick enough without it. So I added a hose clip where mossing. I went for a test drive and I was amazed that the engine was back to normal. Of course the feeling was different but I had my power back. Suddenly I heard a bang and I was pretty sure that silicon silicon hose popped off. So I went to put it back on and I went for another ride. I heard another bank end it was another silicone hose without hose clip. So I put the hose clips where they were needed and they fix the problem. But then I left town and after a few miles I heard air blowing. When I got to destinations I checked and I found out that the silicone hose was not in the right position. So I had to take the bumper down and fix it. I went for another drive and I felt air blowing so I was pretty sure it was the old Toyota BOV hose. I kept the same hose for the pop-off. But because I changed the hot pipe the hose wouldn’t fit properly because too old and hard. So I found an extra hose clip and I fixed that as well. No the car works perfectly. Next step will be changing the ECU with a EMU CLASSIC. That is when we will see if the whole investment will be worth it. 
 

[Frankieflowers]

There is something I wanted to ask you guys. 
As soon as we swapped the engines and tested it I noticed that there is a valve ticking when opening throttle.it disappears after a few hundred meters drive. Logically it’s oil missing on top of the engine that needs some time to work properly. I want to ask you why it happens and what should be done to be fixed. Please notice that whenever I start driving and I am patient a few hundred meters it’s starts to fade until I feel the full power and I can drive normally. 
my brother told me that he had the same situation with his 1996 Volkswagen golf GTI 16 valves.

what do you think about it?

@Claymore @Sam44

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Frankieflowers

[Sam44]

Yeh the 4efte units I've been involved with in the northwest of england do this. I've found it to be the idle control valve located on the left hand side of the inlet manifold that is clicking. 

There is a MK1 gt turbo that it's really noticeable on. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Sam44

[Claymore]

Check the idle control valve as the topic you quoted says. Unplugging it will help isolate if it's the cause.

If it's not that, it could be the valve clearances or injectors tick as well. But neither of these usually get that loud. If you do have low oil pressure at start up that needs to be fixed.

Some use a mechanics stethoscope to listen to different parts of the engine but I've always used the "long screwdriver to the ear" method. It helps identify the source of sounds very well.

Be careful not to hurt your ears / hearing though!

[Frankieflowers]

I finally figured out that my exhaust manifold is cracked. The ticking I hear on the front engine block that fades away with the raising of the temperature is the cause of the malfunction.

As I know that the stock manifold isn’t 100% performing for the life of the engine, I would like to know which aftermarket exhaust manifold I should buy. 
@Sam44 @Claymore

[Claymore]

4 hours ago, Frankieflowers said:

I finally figured out that my exhaust manifold is cracked. The ticking I hear on the front engine block that fades away with the raising of the temperature is the cause of the malfunction.

As I know that the stock manifold isn’t 100% performing for the life of the engine, I would like to know which aftermarket exhaust manifold I should buy. 
@Sam44 @Claymore

First I would check that the manifold is actually cracked. Sometimes a damaged / leaking gasket can cause the same noise. You need to inspect the manifold for cracks. Look for black soot marks on the manifold and head. You can also hold a piece of tissue next to the manifold / gaskets and watch to see it blow as you move it around different places.

As far as manifolds go I would avoid all the cheap stuff on eBay as it usually doesn't fit the engine very well and cracks very quickly.

The CT9 Tubular manifold Tuning Developments sells seems ok as the first upgrade, hopefully someone using one will comment on its fit and function.

If you want the top level then WEPR make excellent products. But not sure how they will fit in a corolla engine swap vehicle. 

Or you can try and find a second hand item from wepr, race tech, zisco but these are probably quite rare in Italy.

The question is do you want to upgrade to TD04l or stick with CT9 / hybrid? 😈

Edited January 19, 2022 by Claymore

[Sam44]

Great stuff guys. 

Upgrades already. 

Take it slow do the research and aim for reasonable safe power keep that engine healthy.

A ported standard manifold is a good option. Also if they crack it's easy anuff to get them welded up. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Sam44

[Frankieflowers]

20 hours ago, Claymore said:

First I would check that the manifold is actually cracked. Sometimes a damaged / leaking gasket can cause the same noise. You need to inspect the manifold for cracks. Look for black soot marks on the manifold and head. You can also hold a piece of tissue next to the manifold / gaskets and watch to see it blow as you move it around different places.

As far as manifolds go I would avoid all the cheap stuff on eBay as it usually doesn't fit the engine very well and cracks very quickly.

The CT9 Tubular manifold Tuning Developments sells seems ok as the first upgrade, hopefully someone using one will comment on its fit and function.

If you want the top level then WEPR make excellent products. But not sure how they will fit in a corolla engine swap vehicle. 

Or you can try and find a second hand item from wepr, race tech, zisco but these are probably quite rare in Italy.

The question is do you want to upgrade to TD04l or stick with CT9 / hybrid? 😈

Thank you. I really wanted to get rid of them stock manifold internal flow reduction. Like you did in one of your threads where are you were showing the process of making the air flow better. I would keep the ct9 to stay around 180 hp for a daily use. I’m saving the money to buy the emu classic that my shop will map from scratch. It’s quite a lot of money including the lambda...

but first I have to be sure that everything mechanic wise works. 
can you link the thread where are you modify the stock exhaust? Of course the FTE engine manifold. Thanks

[Frankieflowers]

20 hours ago, Sam44 said:

Great stuff guys. 

Upgrades already. 

Take it slow do the research and aim for reasonable safe power keep that engine healthy.

A ported standard manifold is a good option. Also if they crack it's easy anuff to get them welded up. 

You know I always followed your advice and here I am with a stock engine. I just want to get rid of that noise and I will inspect the manifold. I do want to fix the gas flow because I read bath it should be fixed to avoid engine issues. I have a shop that can weld it and I will ask them to teim the inside Arrow dynamic limitations. I just want to be sure we trim it properly. 

[Claymore]

1 hour ago, Frankieflowers said:

Thank you. I really wanted to get rid of them stock manifold internal flow reduction. Like you did in one of your threads where are you were showing the process of making the air flow better. I would keep the ct9 to stay around 180 hp for a daily use. I’m saving the money to buy the emu classic that my shop will map from scratch. It’s quite a lot of money including the lambda...

but first I have to be sure that everything mechanic wise works. 
can you link the thread where are you modify the stock exhaust? Of course the FTE engine manifold. Thanks

If you scroll up to the top of this page I already did. 😉

Click on the link and it will take you straight to that page of my build thread.

The lumps in #2 and #3 runner are the worst. There is a small amount to remove from #1 and #4 but they aren't that bad.

Happy grinding! 

[Frankieflowers]

Last time I checked spark plugs I noticed they were really lean but only on the ring. Could it be the exhaust manifold with a crack? Could it be too much air on Idle? The car seems to run perfect on meat and high rpm. We didn’t try to turn off the engine on high rpm and check the spark plugs. The EXU is custom so I wonder what could be wrong. 
 

[Frankieflowers]

On 1/19/2022 at 6:18 PM, Sam44 said:

 

A ported standard manifold is a good option. Also if they crack it's easy anuff to get them welded up. 

We’re gonna take it off the engine to check if and where the crackers. I already spoke to my welder. 

[Sam44]

Them spark plugs are ok. A nice burn on that one, nice fuel atomisation. Cylinder temps are up slightly. Nothing really to be worried about. 

Whats the heat range on these plugs. 

You can run a paseo 78deg thermostat to help. I'd expect them to start to go brown. 

you can only really get the original 78deg 5efe thermostat from Toyota. Most listed online are starlet units 89deg. The temp of the unit is normally stamped on the thermostat. 

going any lower than 78deg and you will struggle to clear the windows of frost. 

Thats the only reason really why manufacturers go above 70degC, in cab heating. 

for best power it's 60 to 70degC coolant temp that achieve this. 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Sam44

[Frankieflowers]

On 1/19/2022 at 6:18 PM, Sam44 said:

 

A ported standard manifold is a good option. Also if they crack it's easy anuff to get them welded up. 

We’re gonna take it off the engine to check if and where the crackers. I already spoke to my welder. 

[Frankieflowers]

How do we get the exhaust manifold off? The turbo bolts are hard to reach.

[Claymore]

1 hour ago, Frankieflowers said:

How do we get the exhaust manifold off? The turbo bolts are hard to reach.

From memory to access the turbo to manifold nuts I needed to use offset spanners:

Most people remove the manifold with the turbo still attached to it because the bolts are hard to access.

In my experience the Toyota EP91 4efe/4efte thermostat (90916-03046) is stamped as 82 deg C which is what I removed from my engine. The Toyota epc states 82-95 (I assume this is starts to open at 82, fully open at 95). 

Found the euro Paseo 5efe 95-97 thermostat (90916-03082) rated at 76.5-90 deg C

[Sam44]

Legend, great find claymore. Thank you. 

The nice gentleman has put a pic above showing that on these factory thermostat you can find the operating temp. 

is this a Toyota part number?.

yeh my starlet on its standard stat regulated at 89degC near anuff constantly until I put the paseo unit in this runs around 78deg Near anuff constantly. 

11 degC doesn't sound alot but to a engine were heat is a by-product and does more harm than good this makes a good difference. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Sam44

[Claymore]

5 minutes ago, Sam44 said:

Legend, great find claymore.

is this a Toyota part number?.

yeh my starlet on its standard stat regulated at 89degC near anuff constantly until I put the paseo unit in this runs around 78deg Near anuff constantly. 

11 degC doesn't sound alot but to a engine were heat is a by-product and does more harm than good this makes a good difference. 

From the online parts catalogue I use:

Doesn't say deg c in the description but neither did the ep91 listing and the Starlet thermo is marked 82 deg C so it's a safe bet.

 

[Frankieflowers]

1 hour ago, Claymore said:

From memory to access the turbo to manifold nuts I needed to use offset spanners:

Most people remove the manifold with the turbo still attached to it because the bolts are hard to access.

In my experience the Toyota EP91 4efe/4efte thermostat (90916-03046) is stamped as 82 deg C which is what I removed from my engine. The Toyota epc states 82-95 (I assume this is starts to open at 82, fully open at 95). 

Found the euro Paseo 5efe 95-97 thermostat (90916-03082) rated at 76.5-90 deg C

Problem is that the two bolts underneath the manifold are impossible to reach. How can I get there to get the manifold with a turbo attached out?