rmsnoel Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 (edited) I have a uk 4efe and 5efe. Ive just measured the intake cams and they are different. Does anyone who owns verniers able to measure their cam lobes. 4efe is 40.8mm intake 41 exhaust5efe is 41.8 intake 41 exhaustAlthough the 5efe has less duration. The 4efe has low miles and the 5efe has starship miles so I cant blame wear on the lobes Edited August 8, 2013 by rmsnoel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 (edited) How are you measuring? I take it you are refering to the height from base to nose? The 4EFE and 5EFE have the same cam characteristics, the duration of the cam is measured from the clearence ramp up till when the cam starts producing lift. You may find the base circle of the cam's differ but this essentially doesn't affect the lift or duration the cam produces. Edited August 6, 2013 by AdamB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rmsnoel Posted August 6, 2013 Author Share Posted August 6, 2013 I hope so adam but that doesnt explain the pointier lobes on the 5efe. Ill have to borrow a dial and check. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
morgey Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 Maybe get some pictures? Is it a 98 5efe against a 96 4efe? I remember someone saying later 4eftes had different cams to earlier ones, maybe its the same with all engines? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rasslenny Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 this is how we checked mine and they were slightly different but nothing to really talk about we also ploted a graph of the degrees do get the duration as well Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rmsnoel Posted August 6, 2013 Author Share Posted August 6, 2013 @ rassy cheers for the input dude. Although there is too much play in the wooden cradle and youd find it tough to measure duration if its not timed up to the crank. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 I hope so adam but that doesnt explain the pointier lobes on the 5efe. Ill have to borrow a dial and check. It may not be a pointer nose, it may be that the base is different is what I was trying to say. The height rarely means anything to go by, I would deffinately try get hold of a DTI to measure properly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rasslenny Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 we have a disk that bolts on to the end of the cams it has the degrees marked out on it and is attatched to something like the arm on the gauge that allows you to turn the cam half a degree at a time then you pretty much map out when the cams start to achieve lift on the dial and when it reach its maximum height that way u get the duration Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 we have a disk that bolts on to the end of the cams it has the degrees marked out on it and is attatched to something like the arm on the gauge that allows you to turn the cam half a degree at a time then you pretty much map out when the cams start to achieve lift on the dial and when it reach its maximum height that way u get the durationI don't see how that works because the crank rotates twice for every one revolution of the cam. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rasslenny Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 im no mechanic mate i was just there and witnessed the craziness as it was taking place... just saying what the mad mechanic was was up to... be it right or wrong thats what he was doing.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 (edited) Hmm I suppose you can do it that way if you know how to lol. Not the way I would do it though. I would say that method would be the way to check the run out of the cam and the base tolerences. Edited August 6, 2013 by AdamB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rasslenny Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 could be as i said i dunno i was just there watching the voodoo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rmsnoel Posted August 8, 2013 Author Share Posted August 8, 2013 Part numbers:*EP82*4E-F (carby) Inlet: 13501-110304E-F (carby) Exhaust: 13502-110204E-FE, 4E-FTE Inlet: 13501-11020 (superseeds now to EP91 13501-11050) 4E-FE, 4E-FTE Exhaust: 13502-11010*EP91*4E-FE Inlet: 13501-110314E-FTE Inlet: 13501-110504E-FE Exhaust: 13502-11020 [TYPE A]4E-FE Exhaust: 13502-11060 [TYPE B]4E-FTE Exhaust: 13502-11010 [TYPE A]4E-FTE Exhaust: 13502-11050 [TYPE B]5E-FHE Inlet: 13501-110405E-FHE Exhaust: 13502-11030borrow from au starletclub Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rmsnoel Posted August 8, 2013 Author Share Posted August 8, 2013 Toyodiy.com lists the 96_99 uk 4efe inlet cam as 13501_11050 later spec camIt then lists all ep8 jap starlet, ep9 glanza and uk 5efe and 5efhe as having the early type 13501_11020 inlet camI now believe that our later spec cams have less lift and duration which is still to be measured Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Just because the part numbers are different it doesn't mean the specifications are any different. A lot of manufacturers will change part numbers if the materials are changed or different processes are used. I would like to see some measurement testing before saying they are different. If they were different why hasn't it been found out before? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rmsnoel Posted August 8, 2013 Author Share Posted August 8, 2013 Adam, unless it can be brought from ebay or read online sadly the fe tuning scene is largely bolt on buddies. All other clubs recognise the differences. I have two 4e and one 5e and there different. Im goin to find a fte to check too. Would u mind measuring your cam lobe and then the lift? Haynes and all onlinw manuals list the camlobe as 41.5mm aswellI dont like hype so I wouldnt have brpught up the topic if I wasnt fairly sure. Ive also been telling people to use the 4afe throttlebody since 2006 and they still havnt twigged on. I fitted the super duper gen1 exhaust manifold and instead of sayin ah I feel the torque lower or oooh its smoothed the power I told the truth it made fcuk all difference lol. Dont even get me started on the injectors, load a balls that too.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ryan lang Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 im pretty sure an old member (nastyrash) has done the checks and said that only the 5efhe cams differ in lift and duration and anyone who knows chris (nastyrash) knows that boy knows his shit haha Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Adam, unless it can be brought from ebay or read online sadly the fe tuning scene is largely bolt on buddies. All other clubs recognise the differences.I have two 4e and one 5e and there different. Im goin to find a fte to check too.Would u mind measuring your cam lobe and then the lift? Haynes and all onlinw manuals list the camlobe as 41.5mm aswellI dont like hype so I wouldnt have brpught up the topic if I wasnt fairly sure. Ive also been telling people to use the 4afe throttlebody since 2006 and they still havnt twigged on. I fitted the super duper gen1 exhaust manifold and instead of sayin ah I feel the torque lower or oooh its smoothed the power I told the truth it made fcuk all difference lol. Dont even get me started on the injectors, load a balls that too.. The differences can be found here, and as stated the FHE cams are the only ones with a difference with increased intake durationG:\Starlet GT\Engine20comparison.gif I don't have a cam handy with me at the moment to measure but I will when I can get hold of one, possibly tomorrow.I just don't see how the height of the cam lobe makes a difference tbh, because the base can be any shape or size and the duration could still be 224 degrees. Here's an anotation of a cam lobe and you can see what parts of the lobe undertake what job. The heel/base is where there is no lift or duration, and it keeps the valve on its seat allowing heat transfer to the head. The clearence ramp is where the slack/initial clearence is taken up between the cam and the follower. The flank area is where the follower produces the lift, this area also accelerates and decelerates which procides gentle movement as the valve moves off its seat and gently closes back on its seat. It is possible to have different flank area's on either side of the lobe. The lobe lift is where the cam produces its maximum lift, starting from no lift through to max lift. This is where cam manufacturers catch you out with their specs! The lobe lift and valve lift are two different things!! The valve lift is the ACTUAL lift produced by the cam which takes into account clearences, valvetrain ratio's etc. The nose of the lobe is where its at its peak with max lift. As you can see none of this relates to the height of the lobe from base to nose. All you are measuring is that, the height. The pointer lobes may well be due to wear, no matter what the mileage the engine is, it may well have had a cam swap, not very well maintained, not run in correctly, incorrect valve clearences causing wear on the lobes. Like I say, I'm hanging on the fence until some real measurements are taking with a DTI. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rmsnoel Posted August 9, 2013 Author Share Posted August 9, 2013 Im more than happy for there to be no differences in cams, its just when I see all other nations declare there are differences and I see differences myself, well I have to stop and ask the questions hence here we are. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Fair play for trying mate, I would still get a DTI on them if they look physically different, but what kinda difference the naked eye can see I don't know.Imo the cams should always be checked and dialed in when building a motor (if thats what your doing). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rmsnoel Posted August 11, 2013 Author Share Posted August 11, 2013 Adam you have list the table that was made by some guy u dont know who lives on the other side of the worlds and who DOES NOT have access to uk cams and who has classed all 4efe's as the same. This is the problem with our tuning scene!! God damn read it online it must be true tuners..Forget about it Im away to buy a honda at least they listen http://m41.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/weeJohn/Engine20comparison.gif.html?o=51 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Well why don't you get a DTI out and measure them then? Rather than suspecting that the height from base to nose is the be all and end all of cam specifications because it means nothing. Infact even cam duration and lift don't mean much! I know the guy is from another country, but do you not think that there has been more people than just yourself that have had a pair or a few pairs of 4EFE, 4EFTE, 5EFE and 5EFHE cams pass through their hands? Do you not think that after the release of the starlet some 24 years later someone would have figured out if the cams were different? Jeez man I'm only saying to measure the cams properly! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ryan lang Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Surely it should be duration not lift that you would be wanting to measure anyway? Depending on what your after from your camIf its pointy but taller (lobe) it could open a little more, but be open for less time than that with a wider nose (lobe) which will be open for longer and let more in? Saying that it depends what you want from your engine. Mid range top end power/torque would be better with more duration, and for low end torque you'd be better with a little more lift?Rmsnoel, what's your working background by the way? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AdamB Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 (edited) Yeah your right Ryan, the longer the nose the longer the cam essentially "dwells" at max lift. I would be more interested in the LSA and rate of lift of the cam than duration, one of the reasons I will stay away from reground cams. Turbo engines work fine with quite a range of cam specs, but as soon as you step out of that boundary they are the most fussy.Also with lift, like I said before, it needs to be measured at the valve head rather than the cam lobe. Edited August 11, 2013 by AdamB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ryan lang Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Yeah the high from top to bottom of the lobe is some what irrelevant. It's more the progression of lift and duration than overall height. Just depends where you want your power to come from in the rev rangeI'm sure I read 'in a book' that they used to make cams with a different standard point of measuring so they all agreed to start making cams with the same point and it was at 0.05 or 0.005 thousands of an inch I believe but the book was slightly American so I wouldn't know wether they agreed upon this in all countries and tuning scenes lol. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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