i feel that was a more sensible approach than mine . i agree with you on the feeling sorry for themselved part kinda because i think that they will grow up and realise shit I've fucked up but then i think about it some more and realise , no , they will probably still be the same numpty when they are 40 causing trouble etc etc etc. have you ever tried to tell a ned or chav what you just said above. that would be interesting to see. might confuse them a bit though