StarletRick Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 no offence taken mate. i like having discussions ^^glad you conceded about the surge ;) but, if you want to split hairs, they could be considered the same. (even though they are not....)they happen for 2 different reasons. and have different names. the mechanics of how they both happen are different. but ill agree to disagree.so lets leave it there, thats enough dick swinging from the both of us for today ^^ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TBDevelopments Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 just read that back, didn't mean it to sound so condisending lolTimTB Developments Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TBDevelopments Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 ok buddy even though there the same thing, cause and same effect ;) :(but like you say we'll leave it there, your a knowledgable person not knocking thatTimTB Developments Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russleh Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 my question seems to have opened up a little debate . my questions been answered along with a few other bits of info i now know though so ;) so from reading all that am i right in saying my car will always stall because the BOVs aint good enough at letting out the air ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TBDevelopments Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 basically if your getting the surge (stall ;) ) at full boost then the bov isn't working correctly, if your getting a litter surge, ie fluttering sound from low boost but it vents when lifting off from full boost then its okTimTB Developments Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russleh Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 well i think my bov is nacked anyway because last time i was under the bonnet and revved it high the thing didnt do anything ;) what bovs would you recommend. so many out there that folk say are good and im not sure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
StarletRick Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 hks/blitz/sard etc. any decent make to be honest, you dont need a fancy one on a 4e. id recommend a blitz dd if you can find one for a good price. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ecksjay Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 they are, indeed, different things. the mechanics of both are different, if you consider the physics also when considering the engine as a simple air pump, it's obvious to see the differences. i'm far too tired at this moment to consider what either of you have said, but both seem to be valid points from skim reading them.my understanding of the two terms is as rick has explained, that they are separate things, even if they are closely related. tim it seems you have contradicted yourself slightly as you seem to have agreed with then argued with your own points, which was quite amusing. that was probably due to the bulk of information written, easily done. they are clearly different things though, stalling of the turbo is different to a surge of an air pump, which i think is simply whats at discussion here.the stall you will be hearing is pretty normal to be honest. it wont be the best for the turbo, but it shouldnt kill it straight away. ct9's arent the strongest of things so it wont last forever, but then again if its in good condition it wont kill it that quickly either, so just keep using it like you would normally mate, and keep an eye on your oil levels regularly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TBDevelopments Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 what i meant was high boost levels buddy, you simply don't generate the load on idle to create full boost pressure, so only do this test on the road where you can generate the boost levels needed.TimTB Developments Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TBDevelopments Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 they are, indeed, different things. the mechanics of both are different, if you consider the physics also when considering the engine as a simple air pump, it's obvious to see the differences. i'm far too tired at this moment to consider what either of you have said, but both seem to be valid points from skim reading them.my understanding of the two terms is as rick has explained, that they are separate things, even if they are closely related. tim it seems you have contradicted yourself slightly as you seem to have agreed with then argued with your own points, which was quite amusing. that was probably due to the bulk of information written, easily done. they are clearly different things though, stalling of the turbo is different to a surge of an air pump, which i think is simply whats at discussion here.the stall you will be hearing is pretty normal to be honest. it wont be the best for the turbo, but it shouldnt kill it straight away. ct9's arent the strongest of things so it wont last forever, but then again if its in good condition it wont kill it that quickly either, so just keep using it like you would normally mate, and keep an eye on your oil levels regularly.i'm sorry ecksjay but its you who haven't seemed to have grasped the basic facts here, being in the motorsport industy over 13 years i think i can grasp the basic concepts of turbocharger design and behavour. ;)But again we'll go into this really simple for people like yourself.On either term as you put it, there is basically an inability to maintain a set pressure, either through pumping into a closed container (lift off surge) or forcing at full power into a container that can't consume anymore (in the case of an engine with insificiant VE's at the time of surge)now in both case this back pressure generated simply pushes the turbocharger flow characteristics into the surge area of the compressor map. This is why its called surge. because its in the "surge" area of the compressor map. Only difference is that on lift off surge the turbine, is basically spining down on momentum and lower exhaust energy as the throttle body is closed, so is much less aggressive, and full throttle surge which is full exhaust flow and energy, this is why its alot more aggressive and damaging. Like i said in both if you have a boost gauge connected to the compressor housing on both cases you can visually see the pressure build and fall when this occurs.TimTB Developments Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TBDevelopments Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 i've shot an email over to a contact at mine, hes one of the chief designers at garrett who i work with when doing custom specifactions turbochargers, i'll post this reply on the matter. it'll hopefully clear this up so you can understand what i'm trying to say.On everyforum there seems to be a lack of understanding into what, compressor stall/surge, wastegate chatter really isTimTB Developments Quote Link to post Share on other sites
StarletRick Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 wow, mate. let it go will ya? nobody is doubting your knowledge or experience mate, but youre not proving anything by dragging this out. they are similar, but not the same they are different things! blimey! they are caused by 2 different things, even if the end result is similar. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TBDevelopments Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 i do this for a living so if i wrong i'll admit it, but doesn't give a very good advertisement to loose a debate on such simple engine conditions ;)TimTB Developments Quote Link to post Share on other sites
StarletRick Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 it isnt a matter of "winning" a debate matey. not for me anyway, i was merely correcting a mistake. it just seems like youre arguing to try and make yourself look like youre in the right and clever. even though its a simple concept and youre splitting hairs with it. the original discussion was you calling turbo stall, "surge". but youve subsequently admitted you were wrong on that one. youre just dragging it out now for no reason. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TBDevelopments Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 not trying to make myself look anything just doing as you were and correcting a mistake.I've not said i was wrong i'm just saying that there is technically no such thing as stall its all verious degree's of surge. where you were making out its 2 different things and 2 difference causes.TimTB Developments Quote Link to post Share on other sites
StarletRick Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 ok last post from me.. as this is rediculous/boring.you wasnt correcting mistakes mate, as im not wrong ^^;it IS 2 different things. and it IS caused by 2 different things. the way youre talking is like saying that using the brakes and crashing into a wall are the same. as both of them stops the car. i cant see how you cannot see/understand that? they happen at different times, because of different things, for different reasons. i mean, one happens completely off throttle, the other happened at wide open throttle ffs! one happens becuause it the pressure is physically stopped by the throttle body. the other happens when the turbo is blowing more air than the engine can physically intake. two. different. things. :harhar: orite, they are not the same.... go figure HONK HONK, is that the schoolbus? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
riko666 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Kiss and make up or I'll do it for the both of youJust to throw in my opinion though I have no job titles or qualifications to throw around to quantify my knowledge, but, and not cause I fancy Rick but to me it is apparent that the two events are different both in nature, and condition it occurs that it does not seem obvious to me to characterise both by the same name? Now, when you lift off the throttle, pre-charged air is trapped (and to some extent, compressed) between the expeller and the throttlebody, and as a result, backpressure, whatmay have you, is going to try and stop the turbo from spinning via frictional resistance of the air...as in, the turbo is stalling, hence, stall. Now, whilst I haven't done enough research into turbocharger Surge, the very name suggests that this phenomenon is the inability of a component of a certain system to process a surplus of a certain flow - hence, in the turbo example, I think its the inability of the engine to cope with the amount of air being forced by a turbocharger, which I know can be destructive. Anyway...Usually when a name is given to an event, it doesn't leave much to the imagination - a Surge is a surge, as in an overpowering or overflowing of a system, whereas a Stall, is a stall, its when movement suddenly or quickly ceases. Feel free to correct me, but I seem to think that these two terms describe concisely what happens in each situation, how can one name be given to both when it is not the same type of event? Is a stall a "negative" surge?! I would continue and wikipedia turbo surge to add to my personal explanation, but at this point it's just a fruitless contest of who's more right than who, I've just explained what makes the most obvious sense to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TBDevelopments Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 very mature rick, just showing your childish nature in this subject, not once have i try to degrade you.Look at what happens in each event in relation to the compressor map of the turbocharger and see which area the airflow sits, left of the surge line. there for both are SURGE!TimTB Developments Quote Link to post Share on other sites
StarletRick Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 ok, i know i said i wouldnt post, but, i was poking fun at you there mate. nothing serious. but i think youre getting your wires crossed and this discussion has started going seperate ways. ive never once said anything about compressor maps, as youre right, they both drop into the surge areas of the map for stall and surge. im not debaiting that, and never have. im not even sure why you brought it up to be honest? all im trying to get across to you, is that turbo stall, happens for a different reason than turbo surge. im not talking about maps or anything like that. just the basic principle of how they happen and why. weve probably lost 95% of the people reading this by now anyway :harhar:. the topic was started by rus asking about the chattering sound if you remember. all i was doing was clarifying what it was any why it happens. then i corrected you calling it surge, as it isnt "proper" surging of the turbocharger, but you know that. the point your arguing for is something noone is trying to oppose. so im not sure where youre going with this. the videos ive posted are pretty conclusive, and i at least hope people have learnt something from us being chuds and arguing about it. just wanted to say that im not being a dick about it (people whove been here long enough will know what im like when i get cunty ^^)ill leave it at that. Rick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Glanza-Love Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 This thread has now been KILLED. well done Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TBDevelopments Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 ok cool i must have misunderstood your reply, i to was just trying to have an informative debate with you not to get pissy.the point i was trying to make is that "stall" is commonly thrown around like "wastegate chatter" and yes it happens because of 2 different things (off throttle to engine bottlenecking) in terms to what the turbocharger is seeing i'm say that its both the same kind of surge just of a different degree, and the term "stall" and also "wastegate chatter" for that matter aren't technical descriptions used and are most of a buzz word.I was just trying to enlighten the thread to show that just because they sound different, and happen at different times they are infact the same thing just of different degree's ie lift off surge (stall) isn't as damaging as full throttle surge, etc etc.Glanza-love, i don't feel we've killed the thread at all, gone a bit off topic yes but debates like this is what expands the knowledge base of a forumTimTB Developments Quote Link to post Share on other sites
micky boy Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 what we have here is two people that are car lovers and car enthusiast,s glad you,s have kissedand made up good lads :harhar: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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