anti roll bars

[keirz]

well for the next stage of my glanza project im concentrating on the suspension.

im currently placing an order for the anti lift kit and rear anti roll bar.

question is would the uprated front anti roll bar really be worth buying too? i know a few people have both in place and some only have the rear ect.... so i would like opinions.

i know this has prob been covered somewhere but i like to get more recent opinions.

thanks, keiran

[Guest Enzo]

it wont make a difference to the handling of your ep, you would only upgrade it on a chassis that was twitcy to overstear, on alot of rear wheel drive aplications

im half cut right now so that might not have made sense.

a mod that you will notice lwads would be a lower tie bar,

using one of these along with a top strut brace if you could imagine crates a box of strength between the two, a definate worth while mod if you dont plan on dropping your car into the weeds, helps with stearing feel also

[Jozinobi]

This is what I love about UKSC, lots of suspension talk

As with the majority of items on your car Keirz, the front anti roll bar is possible to upgrade.

The standard front arb on the glanza/gt is 20mm, it is also the same on the n/a starlets.

The common upgrade in sizes are the whiteline 22mm for streetable/conventional use and whiteline 24mm for harder track use.

TRD produce one and it is a staggering 24.3mm giving 46% lateral resistance (props to hardcore ep91 for that) , think even most civics stick at 22mm and larger cars go up to 24mm...

I know Im still n/a at the moment but the chassis exploitation is the same, but I could feel the front arb upgrade (mine was 22mm upgrade) gave a little extra strength in the hard cornering department as it does what its meant to do, reduce body roll during harder cornering. I defo felt an improvement.

Also it has to be said that the rubber bushes on the standard front anti roll bar will have/are wiltering away, this affects the performance of the arb big time, with an uprated front arb you will receive new replacement polybushes (not rubber!) also and this is a big plus.

So there are a few reasons why people choose to upgrade them, I did because it was part of my plans and also it was a group buy! ;) There are countless areas of the EP chassis to exploit and tune, its all up to what you want to try for yourself. I've gone overboard with mine as I had a bad experience with an older car and wanted a chassis that would be very hard/sturdy and hard to lose it in the corners. I'm also one who has actually upgraded the front arb and I can vouch that if you are going for an all over suspension setup, it would be worth considering once you have invested in other 'more' beneficial mods. As you know every little helps!

The lower tie bar or front lower arm bar completes the structure for the front and gives the most noticeable and usable improvement, its attached right under the wishbones, the only drawback is it might catch on bumps and stones and have clearance problems on certain exhaust downpipes... a four point would be even more maniacal I have one on order of course...

Dare I say this, not many people will like, but the rear anti-roll bar didnt do an 'awful' lot for me, however my n/a EP rear was already stiff as you like and I didnt have the common real twitch or slipping out problem anymore, it already had a combo of 6kg Rear Tanabe Coilovers, RSR panhard rod, cusco rear brace and the C Pillar bar. Its good to be different eh...

Hope this helps Keirz, happy new year mate! And yes that was me who added you to facebook lol under my real name... (had no choice lol)

Joz

[riko666]

Geo, not to upstage you but it's balls - an uprated Front Anti-roll bar will make a difference - all people who say "Bigger front anti-roll bars just create more understeer and Rear Anti-Roll Bars give more oversteer" obviously know very little and just regurgitate what everyone always says on the forums. Take off the front Anti-roll bar and drive it, then try again with it on. It just cannot disregarded and stereotyped to such a degree - the balance is in the amount of roll stiffness at the front and rear of the car, and is as a common proverb, too much of something is never a good thing. By Increasing the roll-stiffness of the rear axle by an insubordinate amount (considering there is no Rear Anti-Roll Bar as standard), you are decreasing the amount of time needed for weight transfer to occur at the rear wheels when entering a corner, as the anti-roll bar will cause for the roll of the vehicle to be subdued quicker - hence settling the weight distribution of the rear wheels quicker. What this helps to achieve is in loading the rear wheels quicker, reaching the grip quota for the speed of the corner and hence allowing for the front wheels to "dig in" to the corner, or establish grip during turn-in better as the rear wheels have already settled their grip distribution. Too stiff a rear anti-roll bar though, and the weight is transferred to suddenly to the outer wheel, overloading it and leading to Oversteer situations, particuarly as during turn-in the rear if the car is severely unloaded.

Likewise with a front anti-roll bar, an uprated front anti-roll bar in moderation will allow for weight transfer at the front wheels to occur quicker, allowing for the grip to settle between the front wheels quicker and reducing roll-induced understeer (as the roll of the vehicle transfers weight to a wheel after a delay as the momentum needs to build up via the rolling of the car) by helping to load the inside tyre in the corner. However, too thick a front Anti-roll bar (like the Whiteline 27mm ones - I think it's 27mm?) will transfer front end mass to the inside tyre when cornering, reducing the amount of mass on the outer tyre (which is what is required to rotate a car around a corner) and hence (as friction/grip is dependant on mass) causing the wheel to loose grip. In a reasonable rating though, as mentioned, it'll help for grip levels to stabilise quicker as you're reducing the roll momentum of the vehicle causing disruptions in front wheel mass distrubition when cornering.

And Joz, not to be a downer, but those braces would hardly increase the stiffness of the car much...seam weld the chassis and have a weld-in roll cage that's tied in to the monocoque with gussets, then you'll have a stiff car. The braces out and about just help to reduce slop in the chassis, like how Polyurethane bushes reduce slop in the suspension. If you meant roll stiffness then yeah, you will have, chassis rigidity not much though. But in a sense, you've both mentioned that it would help to balance a rear anti-roll bar which is true to an extent - it is important to balance it out, but not cause the rear anti-roll bar automatically means oversteer, and hence neutralise it with an understeer-prone front anti-roll bar.

[Jozinobi]

Hey man, welcome back.

Everything I say is from my own personal experiences (not regurgitation unless a common subject) as I notice improvements or downsides from mods I add. There wont be a downer on what people say as I know exactly what I've done, how the car feels and what it can do/do further. Im no expert on all the jargon but I do try and explain best I can.

I would say the coilovers made the biggest difference obviously in the stiffness/hardness of my car and they are what make the car feel hardest, I was lucky to pass mot because of the whole stiffness of the car, so I stand by the fact that with my coilovers (which are not the hardest spring rates 4kg Front, 6kg rear and the abundance of braces, bars etc the roll stiffness is excellent for cornering and the reduction in flex is great, I agree the chassis itself, (not the bolt on goodies on) could be much improved with your recommendations as it is generally sloppy (there is aways room for improvement). I've tried an overall balance and so far the driving experience is fine, I can further tune the rear if needed as the rear arb is 3 way adjustable. I feel very happy with my setup thus far.

Also the largest whiteline do is 24mm for the front arb, all rear arb upgrades are 20mm including ultra racing's.

Joz

[riko666]

I'm pretty sure there's a "Monster" 27mm Whiteline Heavy Dute ARB...their usual offering is what, 24mm? TRD is 22mm, and Cusco do 16mm or 18mm...so I'm pretty sure they offer the 27mm one, though why someone would want to get it is beside me

[Jozinobi]

You are wrong on many size accounts above Riko, get your facts right man...

If you'd only bothered to read my first post before attacking

The cusco I dont know of, but why would they make smaller than oem???

Joz

[riko666]

*yawn* shuttup, they're off the top of my head - though the Cusco ones are right, and the other ones are slightly out (TRD 24mm, Whiteline 22mm or 24mm - Being the Heavy Duty)

And they're little details that don't mean anything in isolation, the effect is what matters and is what I'm explaining. Diameter isn't the only way of increasing the stiffness of a roll bar.

[Jozinobi]

Get some cawfee into ya fool!

27mm is more than a little bit out dude...

Joz

[Guest Enzo]

Dare I say this, not many people will like, but the rear anti-roll bar didnt do an 'awful' lot for me,

Joz

@joz, because you had already increased roll stiffness with coilovers you would not notice as bigger inprovement in handling

there are two ways of increasing roll stiffness as you know.

but if you had fitted one to a standard suspension set up you would have drawn mroe from the mod.

obviously know very little and just regurgitate what everyone always says on the forums

mm ok il ignore that,in your eyes obviusly i dont but to be honest i was tinkering with anti rollbars, dampers, tie bars etc years ago while you were still running round in that white standard seo.

as stated i was pissed when making that post, if i was to reword what i had wrote id say the you would not notice as much of an improvement in handling with an upgraded front arb and id say the standard bar is big enough for its intended purpose.

but thanx alot for your clear and consice input riko

[riko666]

sorry for the slightly abrupt way of putting it Geo, didn't mean that you knew nothing (it was more aimed at the legions of people that say what I mentioned above), but I felt you were missing a huge point with the front anti-roll bars, drunk or not

true, i had a standard car, but it that barely means anything bar a lack of actual first hand experience, though with theory you'd know what to expect Joz, coffee? It was like 4am here when I wrote that!

[keirz]

thanks for the input guys, makes for a good read. i would go straight for coilovers but i feel i can get good improvement on a little less money (not that money is an issue) for the winter and buy the coilovers in the summer when i will be able to push my car a little harder due to weather conditions. what i dont want to do is complete my suspension setup and fully change it during the winter months.........as that may lead to me having no car at all!

i feel the anti lift kit and rear anti roll bar teamed with a new set of eagle f1s will give the benifits i need at this moment in time and i may even steal liams 4 point sustec brace! and then i will go on to complete my set up with coilovers, poly bushes, rsr panhard rod and if the car feels unbalance i will go for the front arb in a few months time. as you may know i already have front brace, g reddy rear brace, zep c piller bar and upgraded springs in place.

thanks for the input guy it is appreciated, any more advise and info you can send my way will help lots, my aim is to build the ultimate nible motorbike like response street/track glanza, soley for the purpose of my own personal driving enjoyment!

[riko666]

it's all upto what you personally need out of the car chap - don't feel obliged to chuck all the typical modifications on the car just cause it's what people say it's best - like Polyurethane Bushes - they'll help extract the final degree of accuracy out of the handling, but at the cost of ride comfort, do you want to sacrifice your comfort for a eschewing out a bit more out of your suspension? And so on...chucking every Brace, Bush and Bar won't instantly make the car a good handler - it'll help, but the alignment is especially needed, that will be the single most effective modification

[keirz]

yeah i understand what you mean mate, i havnt brought this car or started modifiying it with comfort (or budget) in mind, if i want comfort i borrow my dad lexus. lol.

i feel my glanzas handaling is not too bad at the minute, but from driving my brothers eg6 civic i can tell how much improvement there is to make.

in a way i think doing it all bit by bit i can really feel what mods are important, and if i reach a state where im satisfied i can ditch mods such as the polybushes and so on.

plus my cousin does lazer allignment so i have no worries there!

[riko666]

free alignments? Lucky bastid

The Girder Rear Suspension prohibits the EP Chassis from ever having the sort of mid-corner adjustability and "Plantedness" of an EG6 Civic on a bumpy road, but you can get close enough

[keirz]

yeah the eg6 is planted, it only has springs and koni shocks too.

my cousin does most of my stuff for me, little does he know ive got a service kit coming and then the anti lift and roll bar.........think i should ring him and let him know really. lol.

[Liam_D]

Yeah Keirz gets everything done on his car for free, thanks to me.