5EFTE Questions/Discussion

[The Toffinator]

Have a few ideas/questions milling round in my head at the mo regarding the 5EFTE, as im currently building one i want it to be perfect!

The oil pressure issue is my first question, Do they suffer oil pressure problems due to the fact people use the 4e sump and pickup? is it a deeper sump or not?

or is the 5E Sump and pickup a better option if i have an oil return fitted and have it baffled? If it holds more oil surely its an advantage?

Secondly im considering fitting oil squirters, will there be a benefit from this and also would it be pointless if forged rods have the oil squirters/ways built into them?

And finally im using the 5E head and building it up to my spec, Hopefully with some cams and valve springs etc

Are solid lifters a better idea or am i better off using shims custom to the cams?

Thanks

[TurboTobz]

Regarding cams pig666eon is working on some drop in cams at a VERY decent price drop him a message as I know cams can be bitches to source for ou efte's

[AdamB]

From what I've heard the oil pressure thing is a bit of a myth. Every engine will suffer oil pressure problems if it isn't built correctly. Run which ever sump you want, you can always increase the oil pressure by putting a shim in the relief valve in the block.

Oil squirters will be pointless and not needed if they are built into the rods, imo this would be a far better option as it could save ruining a rare 5E block! Would you see any benefit, who knows its hard to tell, the theory is there, but no ones ever tested it or done back to back so pretty much inconclusive.

What turbo are you planning on using? I would switch to solid lifters if looking to run over 8200rpm as they are far safer, ultimately this will depend what turbo you are running as to get the best powerband.

[Taggy]

i know they are not interchangeable from when i did mine, so if memory serves me right i believe the pickup is longer on the stock 5e, so one would assume the sump is deeper.

You can get around this problem though by shimming the oil pressure relief valve, i put a thin washer behind mine to increase the oil pressure.

If you had the tools though i would say its worth tapping the original sump for the oil return and use the pickup designed for the block, makes more sense surely!

[Taggy]

dam beat me to it lol

[The Toffinator]

Regarding cams pig666eon is working on some drop in cams at a VERY decent price drop him a message as I know cams can be bitches to source for ou efte's

Thanks man I will PM him

From what I've heard the oil pressure thing is a bit of a myth. Every engine will suffer oil pressure problems if it isn't built correctly. Run which ever sump you want, you can always increase the oil pressure by putting a shim in the relief valve in the block.

Oil squirters will be pointless and not needed if they are built into the rods, imo this would be a far better option as it could save ruining a rare 5E block! Would you see any benefit, who knows its hard to tell, the theory is there, but no ones ever tested it or done back to back so pretty much inconclusive.

What turbo are you planning on using? I would switch to solid lifters if looking to run over 8200rpm as they are far safer, ultimately this will depend what turbo you are running as to get the best powerband.

Yeh if the rods have oil squirters I wont be fitting any. They are supposed to make a big difference but if they already there I wont use them

And VF24 For the time being but the turbo will be upgraded in time. I Would rather build it once than pull it apart again later as im in rush!

i know they are not interchangeable from when i did mine, so if memory serves me right i believe the pickup is longer on the stock 5e, so one would assume the sump is deeper.

You can get around this problem though by shimming the oil pressure relief valve, i put a thin washer behind mine to increase the oil pressure.

If you had the tools though i would say its worth tapping the original sump for the oil return and use the pickup designed for the block, makes more sense surely!

And yes that was my point, if its a deeper sump I will use that and the pickup, get it tapped and baffled and use that, seems to make sense

TT

[AdamB]

What rods will you be getting? As none of the off the shelf items for the E series engines offer them. Carillo are the only company I know of which offer them as an extra.

If your looking to upgrade in the future I would deffo recommend getting solid lifters. Use the ones from the Yaris as they are a direct fit (get the largest thickness), then all you need is to either have the valve stem machined down, have the lifter machined or a combination of both to get your desired valve clearence.

[The Toffinator]

Thanks adam, and they are from an early yaris diesel are they not? And think im getting some Pec or scat, but really want to try the maxspeeding ones!

[AdamB]

The OEM Toyota part number you want for the Shimless buckets is : 13751-23310. Not sure which Yaris they come from though.

Them MaxSpeeding ones have been floating around for some time, and deffo worth a punt! Although like I said I'm sure they don't offer oil squirters. I was going to run oil squirters in my engine, but I've already got Pauter rods so they will be going in the block, jets are easy enough to get hold of, just hope my machine shop are competent enough to fit them

Edited July 10, 2013 by AdamB

[The Toffinator]

Thanks for that dude

And yeh i have spent a fair few hours researching them, The hayabusa turbo lads really like them and run over 500bhp on them! Have yet to find a failure thread...

And no im going to message them see if they do, if not i can grab some of the banjo bolt type ones out of a block at work, they should be simple to fit as long as there confident so i think im going to use them

Found a very interesting thread on a supra forum regarding them but for the life of me cant find it lol

You building your engine at the moment Adam?

[AdamB]

No probs mate.

I did check out their website earlier, they have a lot more info on them through MaxSpeeding than the ebay ones and they say they are rated to 800bhp lol. Although will be interesting to find out how much they weigh compared to the likes of Scat, Pec and Pauter.

I'm not sure they would offer them tbh, as drilling into the rod would change the material structure and they would need re-hardening, so if they do offer that make sure that they go through another heat treatment process as it will create stress fractures.

Assume you mean the ones like found on the Evo 4G63 engine? Screw into the bottom of the cylinder? I did check out that type but thought it was way too risky.

They do make a difference, but how much is kinda hard to find out unless you do back to back dyno runs, which no one does because of the cost.

Nah not building mine just yet, trying to get the shell sorted first as I don't want the engine sat on my stand for 6 months lol.

[The Toffinator]

Yeh the info on there is a lot better! Seen the testimonial page? 820hp one guy is supposedly running!

And yes there is 2 type AFAIK, Ones like the evo which are a banjo bolt just tapped into an oil gallery, then the similair type with one bolt to secure it and a seperate bolt for the feed.

And true but i think if the research is done and there not just drilling blind it should be good to go, How where you going to do yours?

And its temperature isnt it, the supra one i found gave a graph of how much it affected the temperature etc. All the modern diesels run them and if they block up on a certain cylinder thats usually the one that fails, however they are running a hell of a lot more compression and boost but still.

And no wouldnt be ideal lol

[AdamB]

Nah haven't checked out that page, will have to look at it lol. 820bhp on a E series engine?

Yeah seen them both, have to be pretty accurate on where you drill with those though thats the only problem and the reason it put me off. Another thing is you have to make sure that the piston skirt and rod don't touch the jet on its way down to TDC. Also with those types the oil flow is constant, so if you have an oil pressure problem it will only be helping the cause to run the engine dry.

Don't wanna give too much away about the way I wanna do it as I don't fancy making myself look like a tit if I ruin a perfectly good 5E block, but I've done it before on another engine and it worked well.

It's supposed to cool the piston crown, a lot, if not most modern engines run them. I've never seen any tests away from the motorsport industry which conclude if they actually do anything for a road going car since there very rarely at full throttle.

Mine will get there in the end, slow progess

[The Toffinator]

No mate on an AUDI of some sorts

And yeh im still unsure on the oil squirter idea, if my machinist is competent enough i will get him to do it.

On another note though is i didnt get maxspeedingrods as they were out of stock for a while!!! so i ended up with ASC Rods and WISECO Pistons

Another question also is compression ratio, i have ordered 9:1 Compression pistons, what sort of compression ratio would be ideal? Im not going to be running mega boost and dragging the car, i want it to be nice and responsive! im guessing the 9.1 ratio is based on a standard gasket of 1.0mm? Should i lower the ratio with a 1.4mm gasket?

[AdamB]

Yeah I did check and it was like an A4 Avant or something? Good going though, atleast they hold up well for some engines!

Ah ASC, never heard of them? Good price? Knew they would sell out of them rods though, everyone on here's brought a set thats why lol.

9:1 on Wiseco pistons? Thats unheard of tbh, are they flat tops then?

I always take what the advertised CR is with a pinch of salt tbh as it varies too much to tell. What kinda fuel are you planning on running? To make the most of maxing the turbo you'll have to be running 99 Ron and a good engine management system atleast.

I know Harry runs 9:1 on his 5E, he said it was too high, he can only manage to run a td04 at like 16-18psi I think it was, he was using CP pistons.

Personally I think anywhere between 8.2-8.5:1 would be ideal.

[The Toffinator]

Yeh that was it dude!

And lol yeh i bet a few people have!

And give them a google there an american firm, quite big over there just a generic h beam i think so same discussion again lol.

And yep im guessing there flat topped, soon see they might be here tommorow so i will let you know.

Fuel will be mininum Vpower at all times as well.

And hmm wonder why that would be? It isnt exactly a high figure? Cant decide beetween a 1.4mm or 2.0mm gasket now them.

9.1 is standard 5efe compression is it not? So possibly based on standard 5e pistons?

I payed £610 delivered from the USA for them so had to buy them at that price. They do pauter and wiseco combos also! Cheap!

[AdamB]

Argh they seem quite good, even release all their material composition so the whole world can copy them lol.

You get them from Alamo? Thats a cracking price, can't complain at that.

Not sure as to why he can't run more boost as it's been a while since I've read his build thread, but it must have something to do with the fact the E series was never designed to be boosted at that high compression ratio. It's not high by todays standards, but it is coming on nearly a 25 year old design engine.

The EFE was 9.4:1 and the FHE was 9.8:1, I know Spuddy's engine ran a 8.5:1 although he was running a huge turbo and not far off 3 bar of boost I think, so his methanol was working well lol.

You may want to consider looking at getting the block O-ringed, some people say that running such a large headgasket there is more chance of it leaking/blowing.

[The Toffinator]

Yeh I was very impressed by that, they obviously trust there design! And yeh ALAMO, they were down to $820 so I made an offer and he accepted, top bloke to deal with also would deffo reccomened him.

And yeh your correct it is an old design, But a basic 5EFTE Is 9.1 (IE 4EFTE Pistons on 5efe rods) And they seem to hold very good power as standard, if I raise it slightly with a 1.4mm gasket, what sort of ratio will it drop to? I know even turboed 4efes cope with a bit of boost, so im thinking a well built blueprinted engine should cope with decent boost on decent fuel at a high 8:7 8:8 Ratio surely? As I said im not running mega boost (1.4 Ish bar)

And yeh I did consider O-ringing the block!

And yeh if spuddys engine can cope with that level of power im sure 300+ Will be fine lol

How do you work out compression ratio if im going on a 1.4mm gasket instead of 1.0mm?

Thanks

Edited July 19, 2013 by The Toffinator

[AdamB]

Ah nice, knew about Alamo from quite a while back but never thought about them tbh lol. You watch I can see a lot of people buying them now as well!

I would probably be looking at what the Jamaican's have done tbh, although I'm not sure what headgasket they use when they swap pistons, but obviously the stock 4E pistons are the weak link with ringlands.

I was going to run as close to 8.5:1 as possible and look to boost atleast 1.6 bar on a GT28, I'll probably even go to 2+bar on some occasions. So you should have no problems, I read through Harry's build thread earlier and he was running 15 psi of boost with only 15 degrees of ignition timing, but was making like 250whp, so making a lot more hp over most at that kinda boost and a much more linear power delivery.

Use an online calculator mate, there's plenty about. I prefer using the old pen and paper method though lol.

You'll need to know if the pistons have any dish, and the cylinder head volume which stock is 38cc I believe. Headgasket thickness for example of 1.4 would equal 1.4cc.

[AdamB]

Edit wrong formula lol.

Its :

CR = (CV + CCV) / CCV

CV = Cylinder Volume

CCV = Combustion Chamber Volume

CV = Engine capacity / number of cylinders

CCV = Combustion chamber volume + Piston dish + headgasket thickness

If flat top pistons are used then the piston dish won't be required to add, if the piston protrudes into the combustion chamber it becomes :

CCV = Combustion chamber volume - Piston Volume + headgasket thickness

If you have a set desired ratio in mind you can work out what your combustion chamber volume needs to be or piston volume by re-arranging the formula.

Hope that helps

Edited July 19, 2013 by AdamB

[The Toffinator]

Ah nice, knew about Alamo from quite a while back but never thought about them tbh lol. You watch I can see a lot of people buying them now as well!

I would probably be looking at what the Jamaican's have done tbh, although I'm not sure what headgasket they use when they swap pistons, but obviously the stock 4E pistons are the weak link with ringlands.

I was going to run as close to 8.5:1 as possible and look to boost atleast 1.6 bar on a GT28, I'll probably even go to 2+bar on some occasions. So you should have no problems, I read through Harry's build thread earlier and he was running 15 psi of boost with only 15 degrees of ignition timing, but was making like 250whp, so making a lot more hp over most at that kinda boost and a much more linear power delivery.

Use an online calculator mate, there's plenty about. I prefer using the old pen and paper method though lol.

You'll need to know if the pistons have any dish, and the cylinder head volume which stock is 38cc I believe. Headgasket thickness for example of 1.4 would equal 1.4cc.

A quick google session brings loads of Alamo results up, they do a hell of a lot of toyota stuff/work

And yeh im going to have a look see what they do, few results for the 9.1 wisecos mind but not much info off forums.

And i doubt im going to be running that sort of power lol, want it to be a responsive fast road/track car really not chasing figures

I will be very happy if i get over 300 tbh!

And yeh i will try work it out, had a quick go and it didnt seem right so i went wrong somewhere!

And thanks dude when i get the pistons i will try work it out:)

Another thing i have noticed is how poor the casting is throughout the engine especIally in the bottom end, plan on smoothing and gasket matching everything including the head/gasket etc. should make a nice difference to flow etc

TT

[The Toffinator]

Quick search of the lifter P/N shows they fit allsorts, 3sgte 4age etc, is this true? http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?cmd=print&id=15422

[AdamB]

I found a lot of stuff to do with tercel's, Paseo, but nothing to do with the starlet or 4E through Alamo though? Unless I'm looking in the wrong place

Am sure you'll be fine with something around 8.5-8.8:1 really.

Most mass production leaves a lot of casting, its worth just spending some time with the block and head to see what you can and can't do. Are you going to be running a standard inlet as well? Might be worth paying that some attention as well

Drop you a PM about the lifters mate

Here's a quick CR work out for you.

CR = (CV+CCV) / CCV

CV = 1517cc / 4

CV = 379.25 cc

CCV = 38cc + 1.4cc (Assume pistons are flat tops, 1.4cc headgasket thickness, 38cc is stock combustion chamber volume)

CCV = 39.4 cc

CR = (379.25 + 39.4) / 39.4

CR = 10.62:1

If you had opted for the 10cc dish pistons from Wiseco you'll end up with :

CCV = 38cc + 10cc + 1.4cc

CCV = 49.4 cc

CR = (379.25 + 49.4) / 49.4

CR = 8.67:1

[The Toffinator]

I found a lot of stuff to do with tercel's, Paseo, but nothing to do with the starlet or 4E through Alamo though? Unless I'm looking in the wrong place

Am sure you'll be fine with something around 8.5-8.8:1 really.

Most mass production leaves a lot of casting, its worth just spending some time with the block and head to see what you can and can't do. Are you going to be running a standard inlet as well? Might be worth paying that some attention as well

Drop you a PM about the lifters mate

Here's a quick CR work out for you.

CR = (CV+CCV) / CCV

CV = 1517cc / 4

CV = 379.25 cc

CCV = 38cc + 1.4cc (Assume pistons are flat tops, 1.4cc headgasket thickness, 38cc is stock combustion chamber volume)

CCV = 39.4 cc

CR = (379.25 + 39.4) / 39.4

CR = 10.62:1

If you had opted for the 10cc dish pistons from Wiseco you'll end up with :

CCV = 38cc + 10cc + 1.4cc

CCV = 49.4 cc

CR = (379.25 + 49.4) / 49.4

CR = 8.67:1

Yeh i didnt mean just starlets its all the tercel 5e turbos etc they all seem to use alamo alot!

And yeh i plan on really just smoothing and gasket matching pretty much everything, including the inlet which is pretty good anyway, but exhaust side is poor so will be giving that a bit of work, Looking at the head today it looks shocking inside!

And thanks dude, im unsure on what pistons they are, i have messaged alamo to see what they say its based on, im guessing 5e but i will see what they say, possibly flat tops but i dont think so

TT

[AdamB]

Yeah I see it's just mainly for the Tercel's but it would be being American. I know of another good company in the states which do a lot of bits for the E series on the cheap as well.

Ay I've seen the head and its terrible, loads of little dotted bumps everywhere that deffo needs some work.

Will go well if they are flat tops with that high CR lol.