Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Jean-Pierre Boucher

I need help

Recommended Posts

I have a 1994 Toyota Tercel, but the thing is I’ve always wanted a Starlet but I can’t find any for sale. So my Tercel came with a 2e engine (not fuel injected) and a C150 gearbox. So I’m trying to save for a 4EFE engine, I’ve read online that the c150 gearbox can just fit right on and the 4EFE carries the same engine mounts as the 2e. Reason why I’m getting a 4EFE is also because I’m on a BUDGET. 
 
so I want to know what I can do to make a it quicker. 
 

in the future I’m looking to put in a 4age blacktop 20v or 16v

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi there. 

For instant proformance on the 4efe 1.3ltr I'd replace the exhaust system for a 2inch  diameter straight threw system. Replace the inlet cam for the 4efte Unit. Use a 62 deg thermostat. Also use the Corolla inlet (tubular inlet). Use a good adjustable fuel pressure regulator, and 7afe injectors You should see around 95hp. 

Platinum plugs and a earthing kit also helps the low kv coil. 

Or you can use the turbo inlet manifold and the 4efe inlet cam with all the others mods suggested and see around the same power but no more room for improvement. 

The light weight flywheel and 6speed gearbox is another instant gain. 

Edited by Sam44

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't bother with the 4EFE, just enjoy the engine you have currently and save up for a standard 4EFTE setup.

Dropping that in with standard ECU, Turbo etc will be far better power for the money than trying to tune an NA engine.

If you do go for the 4EFE then you won't need an adjustable fuel pressure reg or to swap the injectors. Not sure why Sam is encouraging that. Putting in an adjustable FPR and injectors with the standard ECU will most likely cause all sorts of issues with fueling. If you add some more of engine management then there is still no need for a FPR or other injectors as these aren't required for any performance gains.

You will probably have some issues with wiring looms etc as any engine swap is tricky so if you're going to do it then I would only do it once and do it right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The adjustable reg will help you setup the injectors. You can do this by eye reading your plugs old school. Its like when we used to jet carbs same principle with bigger injectors. These engines run on the lean fuelling side. The pink 7afe injectors are only slightly bigger thy will allow the engine to run rich on initial throttle on then the ecu will try and pull back the fuelling. With the reg u can get it spot on. To finally tune this put a volt meter on your lamba sensor firstly on the standard system and watch the voltage you can see how fast the voltage swings then recovers this is the ecu getting the fueling right. Your aiming for the same response time the faster you get it the better the tune trust me. Then read your plugs you want a tea bag brown colour to blue if you manage a blue your perfect. This will be felt in the pulling power of the motor. 

The eariler corrola 4efe ecu is easier to tune as it only has a 3 stage throttle switch position, idle,throttle on, and full throttle but the later starlet has a potentiometer on the throttle position and faster ecu. Or some people get good results from replacing the air temp sensor with a veriable resistor and adjust fueling with this but mpg will suffer. Message me if you need help. 

For the earthing kit you want at least a 12mm cable from the battery to the alloy head, this will help the spark and igniter earth properly also 1 12mm cable from the battery to the engine earth bank at the back of the inlet manifold, this sharpens up your sensor signals helping ecu response times.  

Finally if you use a fse regulator these have a large pressure increase of around 1bar standard regs are around 5 to 10 psi. The drop in or increase in pressure is very sharp on the fse so if you place a vac chamber like found on the 3sge engine "t" into the regs vacuume pipe the fuel pressure rise becomes a lot smoother and slower allowing the ecu to respond better but still keeping the fueling on the rich side. Again this can be seen on the voltmeter. Trust the voltmeter and only adjust the fuel reg in very small increments like 1psi at a time. You will get a feel for the best tune/voltage response after a short time of driving you want a fast response for good mpg but not to fast as this means you are close to standard fueling. You will feel the best tune and see it on your plugs. 

Edited by Sam44

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Patches said:

I wouldn't bother with the 4EFE, just enjoy the engine you have currently and save up for a standard 4EFTE setup.

Dropping that in with standard ECU, Turbo etc will be far better power for the money than trying to tune an NA engine.

If you do go for the 4EFE then you won't need an adjustable fuel pressure reg or to swap the injectors. Not sure why Sam is encouraging that. Putting in an adjustable FPR and injectors with the standard ECU will most likely cause all sorts of issues with fueling. If you add some more of engine management then there is still no need for a FPR or other injectors as these aren't required for any performance gains.

You will probably have some issues with wiring looms etc as any engine swap is tricky so if you're going to do it then I would only do it once and do it right.

As Patches said, absolutely no reason to fit larger injectors than 4efte ones or an adjustable FPR on a 4efe-t or even 4efte for that matter if running a Ct9.

They run pig rich as standard with the original 295cc injector, going larger is not going to help at all. Reading plugs is not an accurate way of adjusting fuelling considering the tools you have available to yourself today.

The stock lambda is a narrowband, i.e the voltage output is minimal (1000mv) across the whole range, the swing from rich to lean has no resolution at all.

So if you want to setup your fuelling, you need to purchase a wideband.

If youre just running a Ct9 (or will be) use stock FPR, stock 295cc injector, stock ecu and you will be fine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

It's the response time not voltage reading its self. You will see the swing on throttle then it will bring it back. If you watch the standard setup first you will get a feel for it. 

Upto you at the end of the day but it works and has been used for along time. 

Quick question we are talking about a 4efe normally aspirated engine right. Not a turbo. The gray 295cc units are good for around 200hp. 

I'll find injector data now from dark green denso units 4efe to pink 7afe units are not in no means a big leap. But bigger anuff to hit a power/proformance air fuel ratio and take it away from economy. Near anuff the same as jetting a carb only move in small increments. If you can get hold of light brown corrola ae101 I think they are 98hp gen 1 4efe unit then these are better I I've seen starlets on here run these and dynoed around 90+Hp. No fueling issues at all. 

The other option is to use a wide band lamba and gauge but these are very expensive but are a great bit of kit. 

Edited by Sam44

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Found some good injector info sites here. 

I think I might have been wrong about pink denso injector engine code it might be 4afe 1.6ltr. 

https://www.witchhunter.com/injectordata1.php

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm

they all operate around 43 to 45psi,  3bar so this gives you a base fuel pressure setting. 

The starlet ecu also runs the indirect injectors on a batch firing setup so by no means a complex system. Very close to a carb or single point system. 

Edited by Sam44

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Rep dynoed at 86.6 hp with 2" straight through system,  cone filter and Corolla manifold and throttle body  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Just a link on what I was trying to explaine eariler. 

You can see here "the swing" what I was trying to explaine is the more it swings between these values (movement) the better the tune. Using the slightly bigger injectors will on initial throttle drive the afr rich. This can be tuned using the injector delivery pressure to increase or decrease fuel volume injected. Using larger injectors and decreasing fuel delivery pressure at some point will meet the same levels near anuff as the standard setup, the difference will be on initial throttle on and short time fuel trim adjustment time. which is were the Hp gain happens. 

Fuel in this case petroleum is where the stored chemical energy is. More fuel is nearly always required. I've seen this used first hand many times to great affect along side reading spark plugs. 

The cat converter is at its most efficient at a afr of 14.7:1 but a proformance ratio looks more like 12.2:1 as you can see more fuel. I would fit the injectors last after all the other mods are completed. Your cylinder air volumes will be altered to a level some kind of fueling mod will be required. 

Running older standard injectors at higher fuel pressures to increase delivers volumes makes the injector work harder heat up and service life is reduced, but a better fuel atomisation level obtained. Running slightly bigger injectors at lower pressures has the opposite affect. The difference comes on initial throttle on fuel will hit a better afr for power as well as short term fuel trim delivery. 4 to 2.3bar on these injectors is there working range. 

The lad I got the car off used this method and got very good results on the normally aspirated engine I'll see if I can get a graph off him. He also runs different plug gaps across all the 4cylinders and has achieved a blue colour and even cylinder temps. To achieve this he measured kv and spark duration on a ociliscope. Used a 62deg thermostat a 50kv c4 coil and a closed back impeller water pump. 

Just as an observation look at the Hp leader board on this site, look at Ryan Lang build his torque hit a big figure, with Hp being around 86hp also I came across another raff I think it was, he hit 92hp but again torque was high, another was James with a red starlet, and lee redz green starlet had all the ae101 corrola gen1 4efe 98hp parts fitted a little word of warning if you use the 4efte throttle body bigger unit, it has a different throttle position sensor use the gen1 corrola ecu its plug and play near anuff I have 1 here you can buy that's been internal modified to run on a starlet. I got this off the lad I bought my starlet from he hit 119hp on his using the corrola ecu and turbo inlet cam, 4efte throttle body, pink 7afe injectors, and fuel pressure reg and many more parts, with his torque graph for a 1.3ltr really impressive. These lads had power in the rpm band were others didn't. Using turbo 4efte parts and fuel pressure regs I think raff had the brown injectors. For the other 4efe setups to hit there torque they had to be around 100hp. This figure is very obvious on the leaderboard. 

Edited by Sam44

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The gen1 4efe gi starlet almost identical as the gen1 in the ae101 4efe corrola here is a engine bay and dyno graph of a starlet gi 91hp.

you can see the inlet manifold is identical to the 4efte unit. The exhaust manifold is a 4-2-1 design. The ep91 starlet is 4-1 design. 

The throttle body on the ae101 gen 1 is tiny to promot low rpm gas volocity with the turbo manifold being so large to promote topend Hp. I believe it is around 30 to 35mm. I'm not sure on the gi starlet but I'd guess at the same size the throttle position sensor is a switch type and not a potentiometer type like on the ep91. 

 

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpegYou can see the afr hit is around 11.5 to 13.2:1 with the increase/drop in of fuel around 3000rpm to 3600rpm is to much and hurts/flattens off the power curv represented on both Hp graph and torque graph. With the torque not recovering till 4250rpm. this to me is fuel delivery issue to much and my guess would be the fuel pressure regulators increase in fuel pressure. This is the area to smoothen out/slow down the increase of fuel pressure what I mean by that is have the same peak pressure achieved but delay the time taken to reach this by installing a vacuume chamber into the regulators vacuume tube from the manifold. 

Now around 4000rpm to 5500rpm you can see a big change in afr with Hp and torque recovering and spiking twice this is around were the afr needs to be until around 5500rpm where on the Hp graph you can see a afr of around 12:1 helps it peak again. 

This is a graph, torque graph is constant with the cams limiting head gas flow rates around 5500rpm I'd say with a small throttle body restricting Hp around 5500rpm, plus the afr to lean from 5700 to 6000rpm where you can see wto conditions are met ( the wide open throttle switch is engaged) if this comes in sooner say 5300rpm things might hit 100hp remembering on the turbo and eariler gen1 engines the throttle wot position is adjustable as well as throttle closed position and idle screw in other words both your low down flow rates and peak fueling is tuneable via the throttle body on the ep91 starlet it's not there's no adjustment to speak of. 

It's hard to see the peak cam flow rates on this graph with great torque across the rpm range near table top with torque dropping off very smoothly around 5500rpm. Fueling is much better and torque or engine power from the stored energy in the fuel is evident in the results with a slight tweak need to initial fuel pressure raise on the fpr required I'd place a vacuume chamber like the 3sge engine has inline with the fpr control valve to slow down/delay the raise in fuel pressure making it smoother the ems will be able to deal with it and recover better/sooner. 

This to me is a stand out power/speed tune and the 1 I would go for using the turbo inlet cam the corrola ea101 ecu the turbo throttle body and inlet and basic exhaust 4-2-1 design. With a vacuume chamber in the fpr control line. 

 

                               Ep91 uk na 1.3ltr. 

ep91 uk starlet graph bellow with standard mods corrola tubular manifold and so on  you can see the improvement in low rpm power smoothness and sharp initial Hp raise, the high inlet gas speeds due to the inlet manifold design matches the fuel pressure increase better (also remembering this setup uses a bigger throttle size and a potentiometer sensor for better fueling) but you can still see a drop and recovery at 2750rpm to 4000rpm on the Hp graph seeming slight, but now look at the torque graph at this point now we have a bigger issue, and again it's fueling and more than likely the pressure raise. And ems ability to adjust/recover.

This picture below has a lamba graph this is another way of referencing air fuel ratio, with a lamba value of 1 the best afr for cat efficiency. Now ignore the values just at present and focus on the graphs readout the values at the start have a large difference and quickly get closer this is what I was trying to explaine with the voltmeter in previous comments this sign wave form you can see on a analog voltmeter. You can see the length of time it takes the ems to get it under control a very basic system. You can corelate the lamba swings with the torque graph above swings remembering engine torque is related to road speed and engine power efficiency. Hp is the engines adility to rev and things like crank throws and flywheels store energy in a rotating mass helping Hp or engines rev ability. The tell tail graph is the torque graph a near true engine power readout. 

 

Now let's look at the final torque drop off this really highlights the cam peak flow rates dropping off around 4250rpm with no recovery and a massive cliff drop at 5500rpm. This is the cam with the manifold finally choking out and limiting gas volume the small inlet plenum being the cause. 

id sooner have the gi tune and I'd guess there the same cam. The gi will win in a race because it has a better power band and top speed threw torque levels. It was Ryan Lang build and power figures that drew me to this with his tune being very close to the gi.  This is tuning in a nut shell with other dyno related errors to watch out for. 

Remember this fuel setup is a batch firing indirect injection type you will find to correct these fueling problems just using a mappable control unit you will have large value adjustments on the EPROMs look up table. This to a trained eye highlights the basic fuel injection system and the errors in the system it brings. This is a danger zone because these new values are created because of the injection system type and the new values will not meet all real world conditions mainly to speed and engine loads. It's better to tune the setup of the engine and mechanical systems first to suit proformance with low/start rpm areas and peak normally the danger zones with engine load the key factor. When your base tune/setup is as good as you can get it then you will find mapping yield more Hp easier. Little things like fuel pressure and pressure increases, map sensor tube length and diameter, throttle position when fully closed and wot switch, spark plug gaps and cylinder thermal efficiency all affect this and on the gen1 are adjustable barring the fuel pressure peak pressure. Thermal efficiency this is the reason the passeo and other 5e motors run a 78deg thermostat from factory. 

 

image.jpeg

I've only Been on this engine since October last year and I'm sure a lot more will come to light as I progress the tune of the starlet. 

image.jpeg

image.jpegA better modified tubular inlet helping the topend torque drop off I believe this is a standard mod in certain parts of the world and widely known about this with the turbo inlet cam would be something to see. 

Edited by Sam44

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...