(4EFE -T) Emanage Ignition harness - Intermittent starting

[jimlols]

First of all: Apologies for posting in the wrong section, will more or less admit I'm trying to get views on this ASAP so the problem can be solved and the car can be based mapped and ran for a while before eventually getting it booked in for proper mapping.

If a mod really disapproves I offer my apologies and obviously will not dispute the topic being moved.

Okay, so me and a few friends have recently been attempting to do a bolt on turbo conversion to a standard 4EFE engine. All the mechanical side is complete and working correctly; as is the fueling side of the Emanage.

The harness for the ignition side of the Emanage finally arrived so the idea was to set about making a base map to run the car safely on boost but there is problems with the car starting when the is harness wired in.

Whenever the ignition harness is wired into the ECU the car turns over fine but won't fire; sometimes for some unknown reason it randomly will fire and will start up (when this happens the car will run completely fine until switched off again). If the harness is removed from the ECU loom the car then starts up fine as expected.

After not starting the diagnostics can be bridged and shows error code 14.

The harness is wired in into pin 6 on the ecu (Ignition timing) the same as it would be on a EP82 ecu or the equivalent to pin 22 on a EP91 glanza ecu. To wire it in the original ignition timing wire has been cut and the harness channel 1 spliced in between as indicated.

Looking at the pinout for the 4EFE ecu this is correct, all though I do appear to be missing a cable on the standard pinout. The car has no wire leading into pin 7(ignition feedback) but I assume this to be normal given this is how the car has left the factory...unless the woman owner before me had been fiddling with the ECU wiring...

The Jumper settings on the emanage have been set to the same as they would be on a glanza/gt install except for the ignition out jumper (JP2) which is currently running in places 2-3 (12v) rather than 1-2 (5v), the position of this jumper does not effect the car starting.

JP1: 1-2
JP2: 2-3
JP3: 1-2
JP4: OPEN
JP5: OPEN
JP6: OPEN
JP7: 1-2

Rotary settings are also the same as a Glanza/GT install

Rotary Switch 1: 2

Rotary Switch 2: 4
Rotary Switch 3: 0

Fiddling with the settings within the emanage brought no avail to getting the car to start, but the Emanage is definitely working correctly and this can be seen as it does fuel as it should according to the modified fueling tables and injector compensation.

And just to reinforce a point from above: when it did actually start it managed a good 20 minutes up and down dual carriage ways etc without a single hiccup; until it was turned off. Not sure if its an issue with the harness, the emanage unit itsself or if its just been installed wrong with it been on a 4EFE rather than 4EFTE.

So that's basically all the background information, I'll addmore if i've forgotten some but we really can't work out what is causing this problem. Hopefully its something really simple that differs between installing an emanage on a ep82/glanza to on a NA 4efe but so far nothing has helped and after a day of internet searching and trying to figure it out this is the last resort!

I'll try and get some pictures of the actual wiring install once its light but darkness has come in after fiddling about with this all night.

Big thank you to anyone who manages to read this whether they can help or not.

Jims.

Edited September 11, 2014 by jimlols

[Stu]

Take a close look at all of the pins and connectors to the emanage - sometimes they can become loose especially as these are often second hand units that have been through a few vehicles. I've had this with a few ecu's I've setup and found the connection works for starters but after a drive/vibration they can cause issues.

Have you tried turning off the ignition map and seeing if this makes any difference (ie ignition from the stock ecu runs un-adjusted) - you could also try to zero the ignition table and see if that makes any difference. This would rule out a software or config issue.

With the ignition harness I take it your only using one channel in and out? Its been a while since I've worked with an emanage but you could possibly try swapping to another ignition channel? I've just opened the software but need an ecu connected to get to the full config - you might be able to stipulate which ignition channel your using.

The stock ignitor which I assume you are using is termed a 'dumb ignitor' with dwell controlled by the ecu - so you can run this without an IGF signal. IGF just tells the ecu that there has been a spark event - on a 4efte ecu if no IGF signal is recieved after a certain number of IGT events it will throw a fault code thinking the ignitor is faulty. It doesn't serve any other purpose. I would assume the 4efe ecu being a more basic setup would just not utilize this feature.

Not sure if you have an oscilliscope or not - you could check that the output waves from first the stock ecu so you can see the waveform pattern then from the emanage (with zero tables) to make sure the wave forms are the same shape/frequency. You could rig a drill onto the dizzy to test this without having to crank the engine over for long periods.

Lastly, the rotary switch settings - essentially the 4efte ingition system uses the same VAST system as the 4age does - and the 4age rotary settings are 2,4,2 but as you say, you've had this running so I doubt any of the jumpers or rotary switch settings are at fault.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Stu

[Glanza-Ben]

Brandon off here had issues with his glanza not starting with his emanage on it and would fire when it wanted, was a dodgy unit

[TrisK]

You need ignition feedback. The ecu will be be getting no rpm signal without it

[TrisK]

This diagram suggests a blank next to igf. Are you sure you haven't miscounted

[jimlols]

Take a close look at all of the pins and connectors to the emanage - sometimes they can become loose especially as these are often second hand units that have been through a few vehicles. I've had this with a few ecu's I've setup and found the connection works for starters but after a drive/vibration they can cause issues.

Checking the harness's etcetra is on the cards for tomorrow

Have you tried turning off the ignition map and seeing if this makes any difference (ie ignition from the stock ecu runs un-adjusted) - you could also try to zero the ignition table and see if that makes any difference. This would rule out a software or config issue.

Aye, tried this.

With the ignition harness I take it your only using one channel in and out? Its been a while since I've worked with an emanage but you could possibly try swapping to another ignition channel? I've just opened the software but need an ecu connected to get to the full config - you might be able to stipulate which ignition channel your using.

This is correct, I'm not sure if I can change the selected channel though due to the way the emanage works, I'll check but I don't think its possible.

The stock ignitor which I assume you are using is termed a 'dumb ignitor' with dwell controlled by the ecu - so you can run this without an IGF signal. IGF just tells the ecu that there has been a spark event - on a 4efte ecu if no IGF signal is recieved after a certain number of IGT events it will throw a fault code thinking the ignitor is faulty. It doesn't serve any other purpose. I would assume the 4efe ecu being a more basic setup would just not utilize this feature.

This makes sense, just a bit confusing that its marked on the pinout but I don't have it (I'll go into this a bit deeper with a reply to Trisk)

Not sure if you have an oscilliscope or not - you could check that the output waves from first the stock ecu so you can see the waveform pattern then from the emanage (with zero tables) to make sure the wave forms are the same shape/frequency. You could rig a drill onto the dizzy to test this without having to crank the engine over for long periods.

Safe to say I don't have one of these :')

Lastly, the rotary switch settings - essentially the 4efte ingition system uses the same VAST system as the 4age does - and the 4age rotary settings are 2,4,2 but as you say, you've had this running so I doubt any of the jumpers or rotary switch settings are at fault.

hmm, weird, all the guides i found said differen't i'll have to check this, as all though as you say yes it does start on these settings, I wonder if these don't come into play until the ignition harness is wired in.

Brandon off here had issues with his glanza not starting with his emanage on it and would fire when it wanted, was a dodgy unit

Hoping its not that!

This diagram suggests a blank next to igf. Are you sure you haven't miscounted

I'm pretty sure the blank one next to it in mine is wired with a yellow wire will check in the morning. Either way it runs fine standard without the ignition timing tapped into so I imagine this isn't making the difference

Thanks for the help so far lads!

Edited September 12, 2014 by jimlols

[TrisK]

The car wont run without knowing the feedback from the distributer. as we dont have a crank or cam sensor, so it works it out from the dizzy timing.

so its a case of the diagram you have is wrong for your car if it doesnt match up. maybe the diagram is wrong, maybe its a year difference. but the wire is there, you just need to find it

The reason it wont start is because without a rpm signal the car doesnt even know its cranking and wont eveven *try* to start.

[jimlols]

The car wont run without knowing the feedback from the distributer. as we dont have a crank or cam sensor, so it works it out from the dizzy timing.

so its a case of the diagram you have is wrong for your car if it doesnt match up. maybe the diagram is wrong, maybe its a year difference. but the wire is there, you just need to find it

The reason it wont start is because without a rpm signal the car doesnt even know its cranking and wont eveven *try* to start.

I'm not disputing this, it just happens that the IGF on mine must be in a different place on the pinout - but we dont think this is causing our problems as we aren't touching the IGF at all, only the IGT. I understand what you're saying, but before we tap into the IGT the car works fine

Cheers

[Stu]

Interesting but my thought is that the stock ecu is still supplying the ignition spark event and it calculates engine position via the 24tooth and sync trigger inputs from the dizzy. The emanage only adjusts the duration of this +/- for each pulse. Think about a stand alone ecu, not IGF signal is needed. Thoughts?

EDIT: By the way, the IGF wire may not be shown on the pin out diagram but always check the actual pin IDs by taking the cover off the ecu - they're printed on the board.

The car wont run without knowing the feedback from the distributer. as we dont have a crank or cam sensor, so it works it out from the dizzy timing.

so its a case of the diagram you have is wrong for your car if it doesnt match up. maybe the diagram is wrong, maybe its a year difference. but the wire is there, you just need to find it

The reason it wont start is because without a rpm signal the car doesnt even know its cranking and wont eveven *try* to start.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Stu

[jimlols]

Update on this: had the cover off the ECU (mine is a slightly different model number it turns out) and my IGF is one up from most pinouts I managed to find on the internet. (8, as expected when looking at the plugs)

On the negative side we still haven't got this to start with the IGT tapped into the emanage after trying a few ideas we'd come up with; got a few more things to try based on some help I managed to get from a few other generous people but the jobs are a bit bigger than anything we've tried to far!

Edited September 26, 2014 by jimlols

[Stu]

Have you definitely got the ignition table turned off/zero'd in the emanage?

[jimlols]

Have you definitely got the ignition table turned off/zero'd in the emanage?

100%

Tried a few variations with stuff like that and got no where, tried completely clearing the map etc and not got anywhere.

Still got a few more things to try but haven't really touched it for a bit due to being busy

[Stu]

Hmm, does the emanage software have any sort of rpm read out?

[jimlols]

Hmm, does the emanage software have any sort of rpm read out?

I can display the RPM via the software if that's what you're saying yes

[Stu]

So when its cranking your getting an rom showing? This would indicate the triggers are working (well at least the 24tooth pickup)