The 'crude' Way..

[Smithy_dub]

Hope this is the right section for this...

Been studying alot about the stage 1 and 2 upgrades etc, and using FCD's and RRFPR's..

I know alot of people say it's the crude way of doing things, but realistically, how bad of an idea is it?

It seems alot of people have still gone down this route as opposed to the management route, are there really any horror stories?

I was just thinking, obviously nothing will be as accurate as management with a custom map, but ive heard the HKS FCD's have multiple settings, so added to a RRFPR and say, uprated fuel pump, and say, an air/fuel ratio gauge (seen these used on ITB'b N/A cars quite alot) would you be able to run the car safe enough for daily use and still have some control over fueling etc..?

Chris.

[bucketep91]

of course mate most do it, yoiu just wont get as good a result as if you were using some sort of managment as you wont get as an aggressive map.

but yeah it will be fine and safe to run provided you have it set up properly

[Smithy_dub]

So am i right in thinking....

With the basic mods, exhaust, FMIC etc etc.. boost can be increased to make more power (essentially).

Fuel cut needs preventing, then fuelling needs regulating to sustain the boost? or to keep the engine running at a good enough level to support the extra boost?

And then is it just a case of.. the more boost you run, up until say, the 200 mark, the turbo and/or fuelling system will start becoming strained as they haven't been properly upgraded?

Sorry im new to turbo's and Starlets but im trying to get an idea of how everything works togther..

Chris.

[scot-ish]

to be honest mate, i was in your possition,

i bought, uprated pump, SAFC(fuel computer), RRFPR, HKS FCD, and a wideband,

and for the money ive spend, i could have got emanage and mapped, from nick at tuning developments, so thats the options, and i would go emanage everytime lol

my setup with the SAFC will see a decent setup, prob make 180ish, but it is safer, and more precise with the emanage, even going down the route with the RRFPR ect, you would still need a RR run and some1 to check up, unless you have a fuel computer aswell, FCD makes the car run lean over fuel cut, idea is the regulater increases the fuel, but not precisely, sothe idea is i will use the regulater to up the fuel and make it run rich, and use the fuel computer to lean it back out to a decent A/F ratio over the rev range, im guessing this will take me a wee bit on the road like, and prob someone else to drive whilst i fiddle with the SAFC

[Smithy_dub]

So basically an ECU would be the ideal replacement or alternative to the whole FCD / RRFPR scenario..?

Am i right in thinking a plug and play ECU would be enough up to around 200bhp and a standalone more suitable for big power setups?

[ste91]

correct

just a matter of finding one

[Smithy_dub]

Seen the odd one for sale now and again..

Realistically i think £600+ for a Greddy unit is gonna be too much..

Ive seen some used ones for half that but im not sure which brand / model it was.

Thanks for the advice though guys i think ive got a good idea as to what i want..

Should be searching around for a Glanza in December (great time ay?) when my insurance is up for renewal.

[Smithy_dub]

Just as a general guide, what kind of rough prices are we talking for the different types of ECU, taking into account fitting, wiring, mapping.....?

[RobSR]

In regards to scot-ish's post..when using a safc and fpr you don't need a fcd.. As essentially a safc and fcd do the same thing.. Fudge the airflow Reading from the map sensor...

[micky boy]

Get a ecu mate its well worth it I've just got a apexi power fc ecu on mine and know mater what mods i do i have the mangment

to sport it.I also got my car on the rollers with the standerd ecu on and it made 135bhp at the fiy then pluged the apexi ecu in

and give it a bit of a map and made 181bhp@fly 152bhp@wheels and that was at the same boost so it do make a lot of diffrence

[Smithy_dub]

Fair play man!

[scot-ish]

In regards to scot-ish's post..when using a safc and fpr you don't need a fcd.. As essentially a safc and fcd do the same thing.. Fudge the airflow Reading from the map sensor...

it can be done, but its better IMHO if you have the two wired in together, that way if you have a prob with the SAFC, you still have the fcd there for safety

they dont do the same thing, they manipulate the same signal, but in very different ways, especially my HKS fcd, it only cuts the voltage below the set point, causing the car to run lean, the safc doesnt do this, and instead,takes the map sensor, adds fuel ,but manipulates the signal it then passes onto the ECU

the ecu's go for between 300 to 400 pending on the make

and micky boy, thats a bit far claiming 50bhp with the ecu change, and no boost increase, or any other mods, the ecu's are good, but you need more boost otherwise your not gunna gain 50bhp

[RobSR]

they dont do the same thing, they manipulate the same signal...

that's what I said lol..

There's no point wasting money on an fcd if you have an fpr and safc... Set the fpr up rich and trim it down with the safc.. That's the only way you can aviod fc with the safc. If your adding in fuel with the safc you can only do it below fc.

Also some people have had problems using a hks fcd and safc in conjunction... They've been known to interfere..

Regarding what everyone says about setting it up rich with the fpr incase the safc fails due to an electrical problem etc is a bit silly in my opinion.. It's the same concept as a piggyback when wired in I.e signal fudger, and no ones worried about using an emb/emu to add in fuel. If it fails, it's bad luck, or dodge wiring which is your own fault

[scot-ish]

quite correct, i have the sard RRFPR, and it will be overfueled as stated, then the SAFC to trim it, i believe(austarlet club love this method) the way to avoid fuel cut with the safc is to severly overfuel, and bring it that far back you dont need to go near the 5v(i believe its 5v) that would call the ecu in to cut(map signal)

im my opinion the ecu option would be much better. its plug and play, but would still advise the quick check on the rollers to be safe,

ecu = £300-£400 pending which ones

"crude way"

RRFPR=£100

SAFC=£100

FCD=£60

Wiring harness =£120(as its a cunt to wire fcd, safc down there)

Wdeband =£150 (and about 30 with a bung in the exhaust) this would only be used for setting up the car yourself

then if you cant set them up yourself or wire them in yourself, i reckon a garage will charge easily £200 to wire them in, and set them up

thats £580 just there, and i know nick can fit and map a 2nd hand emanage blue for that price, so wish id gone that route,

[Smithy_dub]

Are the plug and play ECU's just that.. plug and play? like no mapping or mass wiring needed?

[Smithy_dub]

Good stuff. Well im still trying to remember all the mods i'd like (engine-wise).. but i figure..

Full service, de restrict boost, boost gauge, turbo timer, BOV..

Manifold, Decat, Cat-back system..

Relocated induction kit..

FMIC..

Plug and play ECU..

uprated acutator..

boost controller..

And then in the future maybe step up to a hybrid..

Sound about right?

[scot-ish]

make sure your full service is uprated plugs and leads,

all seems well there

[Smithy_dub]

Yeah will do, save upgrading them again later...

NGK and 8mm leads be reet?

[scot-ish]

should be good, i bought TRD leads, and ngk grade 7 plugs, £30 a set for the plugs from nick, good price

[Smithy_dub]

Sounds about right, cost me like £20 for bog standard Bosch plugs..

I wont have the car for like 3 months but i just want to plan everything in advance lol.

[Steve GT]

back to the rrfpr and fcd question id still comsider management matey i know its more expensive but a hell of a lot better gains to be honest lol

[bucketep91]

you may well get better gains from going down the management route but the most common way is the rrfpr and fcd and it will still give a good result and run safe if its set up properly

[Smithy_dub]

Price is one of the main issues, but if i can get a plug and play for close to the price of all the parts of the FCD setup then it'll be great.

[Steve GT]

agreed with above

and i agree bucket but the gains from management are a lot more with the extra price its worth it in my opinion

[Glanza_cl]

if on a budget fcd route will be cheaper by far...

second hand you can pick up a hks/jam fcd for £40-50

FSE rrfpr for £50 easy second hand

wire it in yourself, dont need no looms etc but might get a bit messy.

Rolling road session £50-100 to check and tweek rrfpr setting. Total £200-250 (without safc, but i got offered one for £50) i dont like the fcd/rrfpr route at all but if on a budget you cant beat that price and a standalone like jam etc wont come anywere near as cheap as that.

you got all the info so just go with what you think is best from the information you have recived.