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Sam44

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22 hours ago, Claymore said:

Lol I thought you meant 200 bhp from a stock 4efe engine aswell as turbo and only fuel mods! Seems there's quite a lot of time and effort put into the engine alone to gain good hp increase over the 160hp.

Too complicated for my build / budget but I'm interested in the results all the same.

I though it was a bit too much of a miracle!

Haha yeh I paid nearly £3000 for the car because of the engine work that had been carried out. I've almost replaced all the other components I got with her lol, but I've nearly copied all other mods relating to the original lads build with a few alterations, his build was setup for high rpm power/track use/gearing, my build is for low to mid power with as much torque in the rpm Range as I can get. Im very impressed with the little thing. I've been hastling him for all his Dyno graphs. he has also given me alot of advice as well as parts since purchasing the car, which was reshalled with a very low milage 5 door cd model as I like my creature comforts. 

I might add here that the 4efe is still running a factory composite head gasket, 4efe factory cast alloy pistons and 4efe UK ep91 thin rods. The rods at present are one of my biggest concerns with the hit of torque this turbo produces above 10psi. All these components are really very light compared to the stronger race replacement allowing the engine to rev/accelerate alot better. 

Edited by Sam44

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29 minutes ago, Claymore said:

Are they both right hand wishbones or is one upside down? :ph34r:

Yeh he just just peaced them together for pic I've been onto him since 6am bless him. He's still half asleep. it's later in the evening were I am. Or should I say very early morning now.  He also has just messaged saying he's getting wet lol. 

I really ow this young lad a pint after all his hard work. 

Edited by Sam44

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41 minutes ago, Claymore said:

Lol I thought you meant 200 bhp from a stock 4efe engine aswell as turbo and only fuel mods! Seems there's quite a lot of time and effort put into the engine alone to gain good hp increase over the 160hp.

Too complicated for my build / budget but I'm interested in the results all the same.

I though it was a bit too much of a miracle!

We are seeing the upper limitations of the zisco exhaust manifold at around 250hp predicted. as well as the 5efe inlet manifold but my god do thy produce good power under this hp limit. 

Edited by Sam44

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1 hour ago, Sam44 said:

I might add here that the 4efe is still running a factory composite head gasket, 4efe factory cast alloy pistons and 4efe UK ep91 thin rods. The rods at present are one of my biggest concerns with the hit of torque this turbo produces above 10psi. All these components are really very light compared to the stronger race replacement allowing the engine to rev/accelerate alot better. 

So we're talking 200 bhp with the TD04l hybrid (11 blade gtx billet, td05 anti-surge housing, modified turbine etc...) turbo you've created?

I'd be very interested to see what this engine / fuel system would do with a TD04l using a standard size 6+6 billet wheel to aid spool. I think it would be plenty powerful enough without the dangerous surge issues from the hybrid turbo. It should also spool well on the N/A + t.

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Agreed we have a standard tdo4l unit on it at present as we have had issues with the td05 antisurge housing. The surge is higher but the egt and back pressure are a concern. The torque drop off after 4.5krpm is alot. It can be felt, the pulling power isn't there after 5krpm, and the egt steadily is on the up. The cast tdo4l 13t wheel and 12 blade turbine are alot lighter and spool very well it would be good to see a hl exhaust housing and a 11 blade turbine on this 1 in all honesty. It might get run on the Dyno with a standard tdo4l if I can't get back onit in time which I expect to see the difference in the torque output and drop-off after 4.5krpm. 4efe cam characteristics. 

Edited by Sam44

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5 hours ago, Claymore said:

I was going to estimate around 160+bhp as this is what I was quoted by Tuning developments for a 4efe + t using a TD04l at 0.5bar boost. But this was on glanza injectors with a 255lph pump.

We all know a Glanza produces circa. 200bhp with TD04l at 1 bar boost again with 295cc injectors and 255lph pump.

Being as my turbo setup and fuelling arrangements are yet to be set in stone can you detail which parts are needed to get the extra 40hp at 0.5 bar boost please?

Your setup (from memory) 370cc injectors, 430lph + 255 lph pumps, fuel cooler and an adjustable fpr set at ??psi? 

Would a 600lph single pump work instead?

Looking forward to the results, lots of graphs with boost and AFR please. So frustrating when this info is missing. Interested to see the spool also (boost vs rpm).

 

A 600lph pump is massively overkill unless youre running alchol in the fuel.

For reference a 255lph will just about flow enough for 450bhp on a pump fuel flat out, fuel pressure was approx 4.5 bar (base + map).

For a 200/300 bhp build a 255lph is more than enough. Any bigger like 600lph, you're going just going to be heating the fuel up unnecessarily and returning most of it through the reg (thats if you reg can even cope with the flow) back to the tank. Literally pointless.

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Yeh very high volume a 600lph. I do think the walbro original I'm running will be operating on its bypass alot of the time since the kemso units bypass does not seem to work. 

Edited by Sam44

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2 hours ago, RobSR said:

A 600lph pump is massively overkill unless youre running alchol in the fuel.

For reference a 255lph will just about flow enough for 450bhp on a pump fuel flat out, fuel pressure was approx 4.5 bar (base + map).

For a 200/300 bhp build a 255lph is more than enough. Any bigger like 600lph, you're going just going to be heating the fuel up unnecessarily and returning most of it through the reg (thats if you reg can even cope with the flow) back to the tank. Literally pointless.

Thanks for clearing that up, it was more of a thinking out loud question to Sam44 being as he already runs a 340 + a 255. Thought it would be simpler with one big pump. Unless they're staged or something. It seems a lot to me also but that's what he uses.

I have researched the Walbro 255 lph and all the info claims their 500bhp capable, it's nice to hear from someone with experience of using them. Should be more than enough for my build. I'd probably get away with a new stock pump really.

Edited by Claymore
430 should have been 340

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2 hours ago, Claymore said:

Thanks for clearing that up, it was more of a thinking out loud question to Sam44 being as he already runs a 340 + a 255. Thought it would be simpler with one big pump. Unless they're staged or something. It seems a lot to me also but that's what he uses.

I have researched the Walbro 255 lph and all the info claims their 500bhp capable, it's nice to hear from someone with experience of using them. Should be more than enough for my build. I'd probably get away with a new stock pump really.

Yes I gathered you were ;), again a 255 + 340 is massively overkill, I’d run the one, as 2x also places more load on the electrical system unnecessarily.

Yea id say they were being ambitious saying 500, but I suppose 450 isn’t a million miles away.

Staging the pumps is a good idea if running more than two, but again, only if you need the extra fuel flow :) 

For most starlets you’re never really going to need more than a 330lph (and that’s only if your aiming for 450+ bhp) 

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The 4efe pumps are different to the 4efte units (smaller). 

I'm just out for the best I can get from a 4efe+t as well as enjoying building all these proformance items like the turbo and gearbox and other basic systems to a level I'm happy with. The starlet is a very basic production vehicle. You just have to look at the battery to chassis earthing lead & point to see what I mean.  This is just 1 of many things. 

I tell you what I'll put the standard td04l threw first at .5bar and see what she does. I'll let the development do the talking. People can make there own minds up. 

Edited by Sam44

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8 hours ago, Sam44 said:

The 4efe pumps are different to the 4efte units (smaller). 

I've had a research into this and found some interesting info.

I can only go by the information listed on online parts catalogues but it seems that the UKDM 96-97 Starlet 4efe and JDM 96-97 Glanza's are listed with the pump: 23220-74020 and the UKDM 97-99 Starlet 4efe and the JDM 97-99 Glanza are listed with pump: 23220-74021. Same pumps for both models by year grouping.

However the JDM Starlet 4efe lists pump: 23221-11060.

(Info cross referred on 3 different, popular online parts catalogues.)

All forum results lead to fe pump = same as Glanza.

Like I said 255lph wally for me.

What I can say for sure is that running lean would be very bad so choose an appropriate size pump!

8 hours ago, Sam44 said:

I'm just out for the best I can get from a 4efe+t as well as enjoying building all these proformance items like the turbo and gearbox and other basic systems to a level I'm happy with. The starlet is a very basic production vehicle. You just have to look at the battery to chassis earthing lead & point to see what I mean.  This is just 1 of many things. 

Go for it! Looking forward to the results from the dyno. :drinks:

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Nice research. I did wounded about the pumps the units I've removed are a light gray on top were as the glanza pump I have is black on top. I did wonder on the pumps. Although I do know that curtain parts have been discontinued so a new pump is always a good thing.

It's not really a case of going lean, while using a uprated pump the delivery will always be there or there abouts. Its to make sure I'm able to get the most from the system removing errors (pressure waves) close to the injectors. As well as a fail safe for low fuel in tank cornering surge. As these can take corners a speed. 

So what do we think if this was just normally asperated these engine mods would make and what hp would we expect to see disregarding the twin pumps. Just out of interest turboed.

The only mod on the turbo is a ported exhaust housing. As we have just swaped the cha complete with compressor housing. It's a second hand unit that's in ok condition fairy old. 

I'll do a turbo comparison with the hyb turbo very shortly after. 

Edited by Sam44

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The pumps will have no effect on HP or Lambda if all working correctly as its a returned system.

When its going on the dyno?  Is it a hub dyno or a roller dyno?

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Roller dyno, but I can look for a hub dyno. 

It's on 195 15 rainsport tyres very good condition all set correctly g60 box run in 4th gear Cusco lsd. 7psi boost

What's your estimate. I'll get all the relative info. 

I'm just interested if there could be a surprise factor here. 

As I'm very new to the car it keeps surprising me every time we advance things. It's good to get a take on it from an experienced person. Just a bit of fun. 

Edited by Sam44

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1 hour ago, Sam44 said:

Nice research. I did wounded about the pumps the units I've removed are a light gray on top were as the glanza pump I have is black on top. I did wonder on the pumps. Although I do know that curtain parts have been discontinued so a new pump is always a good thing.

Could be, the 021 pump is allowed as a substitute for the earlier 020. Amayama still list both available.

1 hour ago, RobSR said:

The pumps will have no effect on HP or Lambda if all working correctly as its a returned system.

Regarding lean: Thanks again, I was worried about old knackered pumps being used for turbo conversions but got my words mixed up! 

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24 minutes ago, Claymore said:

Could be, the 021 pump is allowed as a substitute for the earlier 020. Amayama still list both available.

Regarding lean: Thanks again, I was worried about old knackered pumps being used for turbo conversions but got my words mixed up! 

Absolutely they have done there work. 

I also must comend the young Daniel a uni under graduate student at present on his 3rd year placement with us. ho has done most of the fueling and ignition alteration (on the map) and has shown me a few handy tricks. 

Edited by Sam44

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1 hour ago, Sam44 said:

Roller dyno, but I can look for a hub dyno. 

It's on 195 15 rainsport tyres very good condition all set correctly g60 box run in 4th gear Cusco lsd. 7psi boost

What's your estimate. I'll get all the relative info. 

I'm just interested if there could be a surprise factor here. 

As I'm very new to the car it keeps surprising me every time we advance things. It's good to get a take on it from an experienced person. Just a bit of fun. 

You could come and use my hub dyno but i dont think you're local to London?

Whens it going on?

0.5 bar id say upto 170-180ish, but so many variables on roller dyno.

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13 minutes ago, RobSR said:

You could come and use my hub dyno but i dont think you're local to London?

Whens it going on?

0.5 bar id say upto 170-180ish, but so many variables on roller dyno.

It's booked in on the 21st January 2021. Im due to fly home on the 5th all going well it's booked in local to fleetwood. I do have a second home near work in Oxfordshire, were I'm building a gt, so nice to know. 

Tidy figures, let's see what she does. I can get it dynoed at TD also after on the same setup to do a Dyno comparison. I'd really like to meet these lads I'm a big fan. 

Edited by Sam44

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2 minutes ago, Sam44 said:

It's booked in on the 21st January 2021. I due to fly home on the 5th all going well it's booked in local to fleetwood. I do have a second home near work in Oxfordshire were I'm building a gt, so nice to know. 

Tidy figures let's see what she does. I can get it dynoed at TD also after on the same setup to do a Dyno comparison. I'd really like to meet these lads I'm a big fan. 

Feel free to bring it down after and can do a comparison here also. TD have always been a bit funny about doing back to back tests on different dyno's.

I may even do a dyno day on a Saturday morning or something if people are interested.

 

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Just a quick add to the pump convo. We have noticed a reduction in the upper level of injector duty against hp at 1bar of boost on the hyb tdo4 the injectors was at 80% on the dual pumps, it was close to 90% duty on a single pump. 

4bar rail pressure on 372cc injectors gives people what they need to work out predicted hp levels of the engine at 1bar and working on a percentage of increased engine power, you can work out predicted hp on .5bar of boost. 

But I feel we have concentrated to much on this area in the chats recently. There is alot that has being altered and introduced. If anything its allowed us to run the injectors safer/increasing the service life. 

Edited by Sam44

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