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hi all alittle knowledge needed. 

ive seen people using a 4efte map sensor on the 4efe+t engine and was wondering why?.

i know there are different standalone with there own map sensors and some with out does this help/matter. (can you run the standard 4efe map sensor on the different piggy backs)

i have a 4efe turbo-ed but i didnt do the install myself i got it like this, mine is on the standard map sensor!! on the aem piggy back ecu.

will the ecu master det3 require a 4efte map sensor?. 

 

Edited by Sam44
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On 11/29/2020 at 9:55 AM, Sam44 said:

hi all alittle knowledge needed. 

ive seen people using a 4efte map sensor on the 4efe+t engine and was wondering why?.

i know there are different standalone with there own map sensors and some with out does this help/matter. (can you run the standard 4efe map sensor on the different piggy backs)

i have a 4efe turbo-ed but i didnt do the install myself i got it like this, mine is on the standard map sensor!! on the aem piggy back ecu.

will the ecu master det3 require a 4efte map sensor?. 

 

I'm looking into this for my build using the det 3 + with inbuilt 4 bar map sensor.

I spoke to TD and they said whenever they do 4efe + t conversions using EMB they use a 4efte map sensor to replace the 4efe one. He didn't give specific details as to why.

My thoughts on my setup: the 4efe map sensor is 1 bar (1bar vac / atmos., no boost) and the 4efte is 2 bar (1bar vac / atmos. and 1bar boost). 0-5v sensor range for both.

If you add any boost to the 4efe sensor it will max. out and send 5v to the ECU and apparently there is a boost cut even on the N/A! Sensor out of range I guess. Even then the piggy back can't add more fuel (voltage) to the signal and send it to the ECU as the signal voltage its using doesn't increase past 5v and only decreases when it comes off boost. So replacing it will keep the sensor in range for the ECU and piggy, which can now adjust the fuel and timing.

To be honest if you use the 4efte MAP sensor and the det 3,  I don't think there is any point in getting the inbuilt MAP version of the det. This is how the guy in the budget build youtube video did his project. The det 3 can't clamp analogue inputs (Toyota MAP sensor) but it can clamp frequency signals (Karman vortex MAF etc). 

Alternative solutions may depend on the capability of the piggy back and if it has an inbuilt MAP sensor.

Your current setup on the AEM may tell you what's possible?

If you have the 4efe MAP sensor in place currently then the fuelling / timing changes must be controlled via the AEM internal map sensor directly influencing the injectors or there is no boost reference being used which is impossible? Or the AEM is sending its own internal map signal to the ECU in place of the Toyota MAP signal? How is it wired in?

Also you posted ages ago that you fitted a Honda D16 turbo with a det 3? How did that work?

Edited by Claymore
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yeh this is what ive been reading recently. the aem piggy back is wired inline with the ignition pulse and map sensor signal wire (braking the wire to go threw the aem controller before it arrives at the 4efe ems unit). it does have its own map sensor also. 

on the d16 build im not sure what the lad used it took alittle modding to get the crank trigger working properly but as for the install my work college did the rest. i will message him now and ask. i simply fitted the det3 with built in map sensor and set up the reference tables.

ill have to double check the part number on my map sensor, im just going of the fact that its blue in colour, if someone could be so kind as to put me a part number up to reference. 

this is a very interesting topic 

@stevie82 are you using the additional e manage 3bar map sensor 

i know of afew more starlets that have aem units ill check them out now.

thankyou for the reply and any information you find claymore I know your research will be accurate on the det3+ we can advise the lad doing the E11 build accordingly. 

Edited by Sam44
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1 hour ago, Sam44 said:

yeh this is what ive been reading recently. the aem piggy back is wired inline with the ignition pulse and map sensor signal wire (braking the wire to go threw the aem controller before it arrives at the 4efe ems unit). it does have its own map sensor also. 

on the d16 build im not sure what the lad used it took alittle modding to get the crank trigger working properly but as for the install my work college did the rest. i will message him now and ask. i simply fitted the det3 with built in map sensor and set up the reference tables.

ill have to double check the part number on my map sensor, im just going of the fact that its blue in colour, if someone could be so kind as to put me a part number up to reference. 

this is a very interesting topic 

@stevie82 are you using the additional e manage 3bar map sensor 

i know of afew more starlets that have aem units ill check them out now.

thankyou for the reply and any information you find claymore I know your research will be accurate on the det3+ we can advise the lad doing the E11 build accordingly. 

Yes u still need to use the additional 3 bar map sensor with emanage as well as a stock 4efte map sensor for it to work

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Thanks stevie. 

I do remember reading something about the use of the hks adjustable fcd at some point on the ep91 build I've got I'm now wondering if this has been put inline also to clamp the original 4efe map sensors voltage. That's if indeed it is the 4efe map sensor onit. I noticed it was blue in colour and assumed it was. 

I don't suppose you know the 4efte map sensor part number. There are supra sensor on line for £18+ delivery. 

Edited by Sam44
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24 minutes ago, Sam44 said:

I do remember reading something about the use of the hks adjustable fcd at some point on the ep91 build I've got I'm now wondering if this has been put inline also to clamp the original 4efe map sensors voltage. That's if indeed it is the 4efe map sensor onit. I noticed it was blue in colour and assumed it was. 

I don't suppose you know the 4efte map sensor part number. There are supra sensor on line for £18+ delivery. 

The 4efe MAP sensor part number for 96-97 models is: 89420-16050. Blue label

The 4efte Glanza MAP sensor for 96- part number: 89420-10110. Orange label

Looks like you have some wiring to check. The fcd should be easy to spot.

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13 hours ago, Sam44 said:

thankyou for the reply and any information you find claymore I know your research will be accurate on the det3+ we can advise the lad doing the E11 build accordingly. 

I've had a quick look at the E11 wiring diagrams I have and the problem is the gen 3 4efe uses 2 coil packs with igniters built in. This requires 2 separate ignition signals to be sent from the ECU, one signal to each igniter / coil. The Det 3 only has one ignition input so I can't see how it will work.

I'll be honest I barely have time to research my own project so its best that Frankie discusses the engine management side of the build with the guy who will be tuning it. For all we know he only does Haltech etc. and any suggestions will be a waste of time.

I'm happy to share my knowledge but don't have time for extra research anymore.

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cheers for the help, i had a feeling you would be on the map sensor issue also.

 yeh this is were im at with frankies build, as well as an interesting topic with not much about ems on the forums. 

just looking into the ems side, im also looking at going e11 waste spark next year.  its the outputs that will matter at this point. (can the det3 drive waste spark or coil on plug). 

but ive got a v3 megasquirt sat here for that. but might try and see if i can get the det3 working on it first (around march time). ill just advise him to hang fire on the ems for now.

at weekend ive got abit of time spare ill keep plugging away at it.  

theres no rush. hope everything your end is good and family are all safe and well.  

 

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2 hours ago, Sam44 said:

cheers for the help, i had a feeling you would be on the map sensor issue also.

 yeh this is were im at with frankies build, as well as an interesting topic with not much about ems on the forums. 

just looking into the ems side, im also looking at going e11 waste spark next year.  its the outputs that will matter at this point. (can the det3 drive waste spark or coil on plug). 

but ive got a v3 megasquirt sat here for that. but might try and see if i can get the det3 working on it first (around march time). ill just advise him to hang fire on the ems for now.

at weekend ive got abit of time spare ill keep plugging away at it.  

theres no rush. hope everything your end is good and family are all safe and well.  

 

Yeah everything's fine its just my spare time is split between car / family / diy / work etc like everyone else and currently I have lots of other things to do.

Megstu's build thread has some combination of gen 3 crank trigger and COP setup. I think it would be easy to add a cam sensor and also go sequential but you have already said earlier on your build thread that you like batch fired to cool the head and valves so may not be your direction.

Its the same amount of work really to go gen 3 DIS 4efe as it would be to go standalone anyway (costs may not be) but its your choice.

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 yeh alot to do with the indirect injection against valve timing, you will end up firing the injectors against closed valves anyway i recon which = batch firing injection. better injectors are needed. 

ive not got the time or patients to spend on coil on plug mapping its used for individual cylinder tune + balancing varying the ignition timing against crank speed. waste spark is all i need. i might add a MSD ignition amp in there (multispark). exhaust emissions from these are not the best.

it also brings into play causative discharge ignition against inductive discharge. 

i understand where your coming from, it is nearly christmas. if you need anything looking  into im here to help with an email address i can send you any info i find. 

Edited by Sam44
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haha yep.  captain discharge. like you said 

1 thing is i certainly know threw experience that inductive discharge is a very reliable  and robust system. 

all the cars ive owned that used cdi systems things went down at least 1x per year at least.

Edited by Sam44
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2 hours ago, Sam44 said:

 yeh alot to do with the indirect injection against valve timing, you will end up firing the injectors against closed valves anyway i recon which = batch firing injection. better injectors are needed. 

ive not got the time or patients to spend on coil on plug mapping its used for individual cylinder tune + balancing varying the ignition timing against crank speed. waste spark is all i need. i might add a MSD ignition amp in there (multispark). exhaust emissions from these are not the best. 

The other benefit with sequential would be slight improvement in mpg. Not trying to change your mind but I just though it would suit your project more than some others. Dyno tuning will always be better than self tuned on the road so let the dyno operator weave his magic I say.

Agree about the injector spray against the back of closed valves even for sequential, something about not enough time to spray into open valves only without some huge injectors. Think I read it on the megasquirt forum when I was comparing standalones.

The only "upgrades" mines getting is some colder plugs and cleaned glanza injectors, Lol!

1 hour ago, Sam44 said:

haha yep.  captain discharge. like you said 

1 thing is i certainly know threw experience that inductive discharge is a very reliable  and robust system. 

all the cars ive owned that used cdi systems things went down at least 1x per year at least.

I also read about cdi being "noisy" (electrical interference) which is why they're not used in production cars.

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yeh and alot of large injectors struggle on idle and low rpm to open and close quick anuff. especially with high fuel pressures which does make a big difference to the older toyota based denso injectors fuel pressures of over 3.6bar theres a nice power increase and looks to improve the injector spray, but they do not flow any more fuel over 4bar hence my fixed pressure. to add more pressure above this point just adds load on the injector and will reduce its service life as well as adding heat to the fuel. so again we find our self striking that balance we always come across.  (THIS IS IN REFERENCE TO A FULL 4EFTE SETUP EP91 AND EP80 JDM)UK EP91 4EFE REQUIRES A PIGGY BACK EMS TO RUN THESE INJECTOR FUEL PRESSURES.

3.6bar to 4bar is a sweet spot on these injectors. nice gains to be had. my advice is to run a fuel cooler on the fuel to tank return line with this pressure.

be warned if you do this on a none mapped in system the ct9 at 1bar will create high egt this turbo cant hanlde egt like the td and tf and other turbos and will reduce its service life. to not do this to none mapped in ct9 hyd going above .7bar. these turbos fail in dramatic style. normally seeing the exhaust turbine shear clean off. the engines do seem to handle the extra heat.  

having the injectors cleaned and tested is always recommended. as well as a fault code read out and clear.

yeh main area for me on changing the injections system is the cost againstice gains to be had added pony's the mpg advantages are questionable but could be there im going to try newer injectors first but there is a nice amount of un-burnt fuel exiting the engine (poor cylinder mixing im thinking). its a big cost and at present i dont see were the extra hp will be.     

Edited by Sam44
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17 hours ago, Sam44 said:

3.6bar to 4bar is a sweet spot on these injectors. nice gains to be had. my advice is to run a fuel cooler on the fuel to tank return line with this pressure.

be warned if you do this on a none mapped in system the ct9 at 1bar will create high egt this turbo cant hanlde egt like the td and tf and other turbos and will reduce its service life. to not do this to none mapped in ct9 hyd going above .7bar. these turbos fail in dramatic style. normally seeing the exhaust turbine shear clean off. the engines do seem to handle the extra heat.  

I would ask for proof of these failures but I think I'll leave it to Rob SR for that one.

Are you saying that if you don't use a fuel cooler on a un mapped car running a hybrid ct9 at 0.7 bar boost or more that the turbo will disintegrate?

Or are you generalising that ct9's don't like high exhaust temps. and will suffer reduced service life? Wheel shearing as an extreme example from other examples/ research?

Can't remember any cases of turbine wheel shear off on this forum?

Its quite common for drag car exhausts to have a cross bolted exit to prevent any rogue wheel exits into the crowd.

Edited by Claymore
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11 hours ago, Sam44 said:

the hks controllers look good and do clamp the map sensor voltage.  from what im reading, they seem to be map sensor orientated.

From memory the issue with the HKS F-con stuff is the tuning lisence. You can only get the software / licence to tune the ecu's if you are an F-con dealer? So home install and tune is not possible.

I was talking with a mate about det 3 last night and I seem to recall he mentioned that the Emanage ultimate can handle grouped ignition signals. Checked the archive and found this. Might work for the gen 3 DIS 4efe. Best to contact emanage and check if its possible before any purchases.

 

Annotation 2020-12-03 091836.jpg

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46 minutes ago, Claymore said:

I would ask for proof of these failures but I think I'll leave it to Rob SR for that one.

Are you saying that if you don't use a fuel cooler on a un mapped car running a hybrid ct9 at 0.7 bar boost or more that the turbo will disintegrate?

Or are you generalising that ct9's don't like high exhaust temps. and will suffer reduced service life? Wheel shearing as an extreme example from other examples/ research?

Can't remember any cases of turbine wheel shear off on this forum?

ive been all over the internet over the past 14 months and spoken to many many people and still do that have had these cars since they were released. proof is out there and not so far away. i personally deal with heat many types of engine heat which is more than normally the case a very unwanted byproduct of inefficiently burning fuels. 

your more than welcome to put your fuel pressure at 3.6bar base with vacuum and see feel the power gains i speak of which ive felt first hand. the ct9a&b at and upto 1 bar can take the tune but the ct9hyb cant over .7 .8 things start to get very hot.  this is on a fcd, fpr, fmic, hks actuator, basic setup. i recon with a piggy back on the heat can be tamed. 

surprisingly the ct9a&b do well on the basic setup upto 1bar.  

 

    

Edited by Sam44
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12 minutes ago, Claymore said:

From memory the issue with the HKS F-con stuff is the tuning lisence. You can only get the software / licence to tune the ecu's if you are an F-con dealer? So home install and tune is not possible.

I was talking with a mate about det 3 last night and I seem to recall he mentioned that the Emanage ultimate can handle grouped ignition signals. Checked the archive and found this. Might work for the gen 3 DIS 4efe. Best to contact emanage and check if its possible before any purchases.

 

Annotation 2020-12-03 091836.jpg

spot on: thanks again for your time, yeh i see what your saying about hks. i have found the software for the hks f-con pro online but the control units are £££ but you do only buy this once.  

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3 hours ago, Sam44 said:

spot on: thanks again for your time, yeh i see what your saying about hks. i have found the software for the hks f-con pro online but the control units are £££ but you do only buy this once.  

Turns out emanage blue has the same capability (wiring diagram) with the optional ignition harness added.

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The det3 is the better option if your just 4efe turbo. Get one with the built in map sensor and also use a 4efte map sensor and 4efte injectors. 
The det3 can clamp the analogue signal, but with the 4efte map sensor you wont have to worry about it.

If you need any help getting it running I can remote in and set it up so you can drive it safely to get it mapped.

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