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Sam44

Ep91 4efe tdo hyb turbo build

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Posted (edited)

The starlet so far 

Model :- UK CD

Engine :- UK 4EFE 1.3ltr,  turbo td04l 15t/ td04hl hyb, ported head, uptated valve springs, 5efe inlet manifold,  high flow fuel rail, 7afe injectors, fse raising rate fuel reg, walbro 225 fuel pump, fedanza alloy flywheel, acl big end shells, 76 deg paseo thermostat. Zisco exhaust manifold externally gated, tail gate,  silly big front mounted intercooler, electronic boost controller, iridium 7 plugs,  race ht leads. Jap speed modified exhaust system with high flow cat. Aem piggy back. 

Transmission :- 6speed C160 manual cusco LSD. 3 puk light weight 200mm clutch. 

 

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Edited by Sam44
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It's standard ecu on a aem piggy back. I've Not long had it. I got it like this alot was taken off. I've got the current spec here incase I needed parts. Quite pleased with her. 

 

 

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Quick question. 

My turbo is a Tdo4 15t 6+6 blade billet compressor side and tdo4hl 9 blade turbine and port. 

It's designed for the high compression 4efe engine to run higher boost on track and provide good high rpm torque. 

As the car is now not track fit and I'm only running it on the road I'm thinking to replace the 15t compressor and wheel for a 13t billet 11 blade to improve low to mid range rpm power. Has anyone run a 11 blade 13t and have a graph. 

I'm wanting to keep rpm capped at 5.5k and keep turbo surge to a minimum for reliability. 

 

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Beauty, thanks alot. 

Waw great power build there. And holds the torque on till the end. Very nice. 

The lad that had it only ran as low as a 15t 11 blade billet and swapped it for a 6+6 billet compressor wheel. So he was not sure if I should use a 13t 11blade which switch on fast and surge power but can flatten out near top end or the 7+7 blade which will build power to peak but switch on slow. 

Can I ask what inlet and exhaust you are running. 

He also mentioned a roll inlet on a 7+7 blade or somthing. 

Picture Bellow : 4efe dyno graph borrowed off 1 of the great ep91 builds on here. I've put it here close to this turbo dyno graph above for points of reference on the torque curve mainly (cams, inlet reference). 

This 4efe has a corrola inlet (rolla),  induction cone filter, with standard cams. 

You can clearly see this is running a different cam setup then on the 4efte engine. The torque drop off is fast and hard.  Starting around 4.5krpm and no amount of exhaust or intake flow improvements will help. Making 100hp near impossible to reach making the 93 to 96hp I've seen on some 4efe on here very very impressive. Best option fit 4efte inlet cam then tune the rest. 

I'm certain if the setup was to see a 4efte inlet cam, and prethrottle body induction power box installed he would make around 100hp and have alot more topend pull torque winning races. 

 

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Edited by Sam44

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Standard glanza inlet bud no need for a fancy one at my bhp. my build is a forged 4efte not that there is much difference between the 4efe bar the head and a few other bits. 

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10 minutes ago, akyakapotter said:

Standard glanza inlet bud no need for a fancy one at my bhp. my build is a forged 4efte not that there is much difference between the 4efe bar the head and a few other bits. 

I think the inlet cam is different on the 4efe better low rpm power flow rates. This is running the 5efe inlet and zisso exhaust manifold extrnaly gated,. All about high low rpm flow rates getting things spooling and pulling. I was told somthing about a Rolla inlet to help low rpm flow even more. 

 

What exhaust setup do you have. 

Many thanks 

 

Edited by Sam44

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Keep them setups and graphs coming please Tdo4 hyb and setups. I'm hoping to order my parts ASAP. 

What I'm reading the blitz and apexi and 1 of the best systems. 

What exhaust manifold and waste gate are you running. 

 

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9 hours ago, Sam44 said:

Quick question. 

My turbo is a Tdo4 15t 6+6 blade billet compressor side and tdo4hl 9 blade turbine and port. 

It's designed for the high compression 4efe engine to run higher boost on track and provide good high rpm torque. 

As the car is now not track fit and I'm only running it on the road I'm thinking to replace the 15t compressor and wheel for a 13t billet 11 blade to improve low to mid range rpm power. Has anyone run a 11 blade 13t and have a graph. 

I'm wanting to keep rpm capped at 5.5k and keep turbo surge to a minimum for reliability. 

 

The stock head and cam won’t allow good high rpm torque. Look at any stock cam graph and the torque is all downhill from 5k, it starts to fall off a cliff. With a well thought out head, you will be able to get it to hold onto the torque until around 7k, where then it’ll start to drop off slowly. That was still on stock valve too.

Why are you wanting to only rev to 5500? You should be making power past this, so you’ll be limiting your powerband unnecessarily imo. 

Youll need the compressor map from your chosen compressor wheel to calculate what boost you can attempt to target at x rpm to ensure you don’t go past the surge line. 

For example, I know I can’t target more than 1.4 bar on our EFR kit at 3600rpm or I’ll be past the surge line. It works the other end too so you know if you may be overspending the turbo, or chocking it.
 

 

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I've never seen a a graph for the turbo I'm running. it's a little bit more than that with a high compression na engine. The profile of the inlet cam combined with the inlet and exhaust manifold gas speeds/volumes. You can really tailor a great engine torque curve starting from very low rpm. This will help spool a biggish turbo giving great mpg and easy to drive speed/power keeping the need to access topend rpm power at a minimum. The exhaust turbine/port does a great job of lowering egt and back pressure holding on that power till the end and allowing higher pressures to be used on the 4efe. I tend to do for feel and dyno graphs over compressor maps. Unless I've got no experience with make model of turbo. Another problem is the power delivery if it hits to fast it will bend a rod. The turbo I'm running at present has very smooth but big power levels making it hard to tell when the turbo is actually turning on. It's both very controllable and reliable which I want for the road. I know with this turbo I'm not going to. Choke it but I do worry about surge 

Edited by Sam44
Correcting a paragraph

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Yes you need to use a dyno, but if you’re not analysing the compressor map, how do you know you’re not driving the turbo into surge or going past the choke line before you physically hear surge or see the engine isn’t picking up more power with extra boost on the dyno? You can’t just use ‘feel’ if you’re doing things properly. 
 

If you reduce overlap to help drive the turbo, yes you will gain bottom end and response like you say, but then you’ll lose the top end. You can do one or the other with the cam, not both. A cam designed for a n/a engine is completely different to a properly spec’d turbo cam.

Post up your graph and we can see the torque curve and compare. 
 

 

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Here's the ask. Just off the top of your head as I can see your a lad of knowledge.

1) I'm wanting a mitsubishi turbo or garret equivalent for a 4efe 1300cc high compression ratio engine to produce around 190 to 220hp before 5.5k rpm because I'm 40 years of age and don't want to look foolish redlining my car on public roads. 

  2) I'm also wanting best possible mpg threw experience this requires good engine power and gearing with boost to hit after cruz rpm so around 3.2k rpm

4) money is tight because I have kids so cheapest option here were I can get turbo kits at a premium price. 

5) last I need to be able to have a wide range of option on the turbo so as to finally tune it and avoid surges in power and be able to reduce egt. 

The na inlet cam suits my required rpm power helping kick off the the head gas speeds very low in the rev range. The head is ported for torque also (gas speed) and not peak hp. If I was to go on track I would use the turbo cam and 4efte inlet and throttle. 

 

Edited by Sam44

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Does any body use or know of any anti lag options. 

I came across this 

Turbo and intercooler bypass (D-valve)Edit

A method by which a large one-way check valve is inserted just prior to the throttle body, enabling air to bypass the turbo, intercooler, and piping during periods where there is negative air pressure at the throttle body inlet. This results in more air combusting, which means more air driving the turbine side of the turbo. As soon as positive pressure is reached in the intercooler hosing, the valve closes.

Sometimes referred to as the Dan Culkin valve.

When used in a MAF configuration, the D-valve should draw air through the MAF to maintain proper A/F ratios. This is not necessary in a speed-density configuration.

I was thinking about using a electronically control Air valve to close my dump valve as soon as turbo pressure is produced. 

Im also piping this control valve to the fse fuel reg so as to hold off fuel pressure raise untill boost starts like on the 3sgte system. I've also recently seen alot of fuel parameters on maps altered to run leaner at this point to promote turbo switch on. Which I think engine load and gearing is the dangerous gamble here. 

Edited by Sam44

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22 hours ago, Sam44 said:

Here's the ask. Just off the top of your head as I can see your a lad of knowledge.

1) I'm wanting a mitsubishi turbo or garret equivalent for a 4efe 1300cc high compression ratio engine to produce around 190 to 220hp before 5.5k rpm because I'm 40 years of age and don't want to look foolish redlining my car on public roads. 

  2) I'm also wanting best possible mpg threw experience this requires good engine power and gearing with boost to hit after cruz rpm so around 3.2k rpm

4) money is tight because I have kids so cheapest option here were I can get turbo kits at a premium price. 

5) last I need to be able to have a wide range of option on the turbo so as to finally tune it and avoid surges in power and be able to reduce egt. 

The na inlet cam suits my required rpm power helping kick off the the head gas speeds very low in the rev range. The head is ported for torque also (gas speed) and not peak hp. If I was to go on track I would use the turbo cam and 4efte inlet and throttle. 

 

If that’s the power goal you’re after, I think your best bet would actually just be a CT9 hybrid (you should be able to pick one up pretty cheap) or a Mhi/ihi TF035 which is also a cost effective turbo. Both those will produce the power you want in the rev range you want. 
 

Yes final drive / gear does help with economy, however a lot of the improvements can be made when mapping the engine. On ECU’s that can hold multiple maps I always add a ‘lean cruise’ one so customer can get a few extra mpg’S on the motorway. 

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17 hours ago, Sam44 said:

Does any body use or know of any anti lag options. 

I came across this 

Turbo and intercooler bypass (D-valve)Edit

A method by which a large one-way check valve is inserted just prior to the throttle body, enabling air to bypass the turbo, intercooler, and piping during periods where there is negative air pressure at the throttle body inlet. This results in more air combusting, which means more air driving the turbine side of the turbo. As soon as positive pressure is reached in the intercooler hosing, the valve closes.

Sometimes referred to as the Dan Culkin valve.

When used in a MAF configuration, the D-valve should draw air through the MAF to maintain proper A/F ratios. This is not necessary in a speed-density configuration.

I was thinking about using a electronically control Air valve to close my dump valve as soon as turbo pressure is produced. 

Im also piping this control valve to the fse fuel reg so as to hold off fuel pressure raise untill boost starts like on the 3sgte system. I've also recently seen alot of fuel parameters on maps altered to run leaner at this point to promote turbo switch on. Which I think engine load and gearing is the dangerous gamble here. 

Using an ALS valve is the proper way of doing it, however it can be done with no additional hardware through ignition retard, ignition cuts and fuel cuts also for heat management. 
 

Just be careful if you use the true valve route as it can be quite aggressive on valve train, turbo, exhaust manifold etc. 

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I've been reading about ignition retard. I can't use that method using the na I'm trying to reduce cylinder temps and egt as much as I can, fuel cut for me on a batch firing indirect efi system I would never recomend. asking for det and high combustion temps. 

exhaust popping antilag will upset the neighbours. 

So here's the design so far (the pre turbo throttle and fuel stand off valve for the pressure reg I've got out of this book I've acquired) 

Design and use a electronic controlled pre turbo throttle to help gas velocities/volumes going into the turbo, this will also close out of spool to generate a vacume/negative pressure acting on the compressor wheel removing load and helping overcome anertia lag. This opens progressively to maintain minimum loading and help promote gas speeds. 

Use a fuel pressure stand off valve like used on the celica and mr2 3sge and 3sgte systems this holds off the fuel pressure raise on the mechanical regulator. This allows the ecu to better more accurately get the fueling for throttle on right because the fuel pressure is stable helping spool time and response. 

Use a baileys bucket bov valve positioned in the intercooler pipe as close to the throttle body as possible but after the power box installed. The bov valve will remain fully open until the turbo produces positive pressure. Also electricaly controlled. 

I'll put up before and after graphs of the system and it should be easy to see the bemafits on the td04l/hl hyb. Turbo pressure build very smooth but highly capable of big hp

 

 

Edited by Sam44

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7 hours ago, RobSR said:

If that’s the power goal you’re after, I think your best bet would actually just be a CT9 hybrid (you should be able to pick one up pretty cheap) or a Mhi/ihi TF035 which is also a cost effective turbo. Both those will produce the power you want in the rev range you want. 
 

Yes final drive / gear does help with economy, however a lot of the improvements can be made when mapping the engine. On ECU’s that can hold multiple maps I always add a ‘lean cruise’ one so customer can get a few extra mpg’S on the motorway. 

The final gear on the box is not wear it saves fuel. It gets upto desired speed at 30,40,70mph faster so better acceleration. Reducing loading of the engine (long gears).

Also the low rpm engine torque does the same reducing throttle on time (fuel efficient) But you are right a overdrive top gear helps reduce motorway cruz rpm. 

And these suggested turbos have to sharper torque drop for my cam and high egt and back pressure for the high compression engine. They also require high pressure to run my desired hp targets/power surge. All the nasties really. Also the wheel size difference on the ct9 hyb is crazy I can't see these lasting long. 

Thanks all the same I ran the tf035 on my colt. Torque drop off was a bitch. In a race you would be winning winning winning oh no wait a min he's coming past. 

I need a big turbo for this engine cc and a very well designed setup to promote a complete rpm torque curve with the manifolds inlet and exhaust promoting turbo spool and low rpm torque with high gas speeds. And a large turbo to enhance massively the cam/head torque drop off giving a almost table top torque graph that's very efficient. with a great low rpm raise 

Edited by Sam44

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The info I have on the. Vehicle design a td05 hyb was to big for track with bad power surge and stall but required for good quarter mile times with a tdo6 the best option here due to topend torque output. The Tdo4 hl the best for smooth power delivery and top end torque capabilites for track a rpm limit of 7.5k needed. 

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Best of luck with whatever setup you decide on. Look forward to seeing the results.

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Cheers Rob.

There is alot of small things to work out.  With the large volume of the intercooler it will be better to have the bov valve as close to the turbo as possible to maintain compressor shaft speed minimise losses. With this kind of intercooler volume there will be a timed delayed pressure drop with the bov so far away from the turbo and have a impact on shaft speed so 2x bovs I'm thinking.  

I also need over boost and intake temp warning/control options. 

Edited by Sam44

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Tdo4l/hl hyb 

1st picture: weight of aftermarket tdo4hl 9 blade turbine and shaft 

2nd picture: weight of tdo4l 13t standard cast 6+6 blade compressor wheel 

Pictures to come. Weight of standard tdo4l 12 blade turbine and shaft and weight of new 11 blade 13t billet compressor wheel. 

The new compressor wheel design billet alloy 11 blade race option should give around a 25hp gain in mid range power and also torque, by way of ruducing spool time. 

It does pump less air volume once its up to speed (cmf) then the billet 6+6 blade and 7+7 blade option. Better than the 6+6 blade standard cast option in all areas. 

This is where the 9 blade turbine shaft comes in reducing exhaust back pressure and lowering egt. This should promote topend power levels and the ability to run higher pressures on the 4efe engine. 

This will have a negative affect increasing spool time.

Now hopefully you can understand the design take from 1 (for all round benafits for the full system), and give with the other. 

Now I will try and configure the system to increase the power range (power band) in the full rpm range.promoting turbo spool also allowing me to drop my rpm limit to 5.5k increasing reliability and fast road proformance power range to be maximised obtaining better fuel efficiency in the process. 

My aim on mpg is around 40 at 200+hp levels and 200+ftlds of torque. 

Weight difference between billet race compressor wheel and stand cast wheel: 1g. 

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Edited by Sam44

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Good Morning all. 

Over the weekend I've removed the power steering rack and pump and installed a none power rack. I've also removed the water pump to install a closed back impeller to a new pump for better quality engine block pressure's. Having this book is helping me so much. Alot of detailed information on the engine. 

I've installed a egt sensor and boost gauge also. I'm loving Woking on this Toyota so easy and simple. Beats working on my clio sport by a long way. 

Does any 1 know if there has been a duel fuel starlet before. 

At work the latest tech is dual fuel (lpg) its run along side petrol and desile to increase octane and reduce the amount of liquid fuel used. On vans and trucks we are seeing big gains in fuel economy and power. 

Edited by Sam44

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