1EL smoking - Not stem seals or head gasket - Compression is consistent between cylinders :/

[Bramham89]

Hi there, sorry for the long post. I really need some help though, I'm completely stuck.

I have an EP70 starlet with low mileage in great overall condition and I'm keen to keep it running.

It has a 1E engine

When I bought the car it drove well, good on fuel, no smoking, no misfiring.

It had been stood a while so the old oil had caked the inside of the rocker cover and the head and the ignition timing was advanced too far, but once fixed it ran better.

Then the timing belt snapped

I put a new belt on and did a compression test, just turning it by hand. It would probably have got OK results, if I hadn't timed it up wrong (nothing was hitting though). But since I had timed it wrong I assumed the worse and took the head off to check the damage:

3 snapped rockers but everything else looked fine. No bent valves no marks on the pistons.

At this point I had already bought a used replacement head, which looked in better condition than my old one as it wasn't covered in oil deposits.

So I put it all back together with the head I bought with a new head gasket and used some high temp instant gasket to aid the seal on the intake and other gaskets which were all in good condition.

Once it was back together it started fine and ran fairly well but there was clearly something wrong, as it stuttered a bit on idle and smoked a bit. I drove it around like that for a while (I needed it running) and realised that the smoke must have been burnt oil as my oil light flickered on after about 200 miles.

First thought it was piston rings. Did a compression test and was getting 155, 160, 160, 155. I thought that was OK. There was fumes coming from the oil filler cap but (stupidly) also though this could just be leaking from the exhaust valve stem seals. So I decided to change the valve stem seals, and re-ground the valve seats while I had them out. There was some pitting around the exhaust valves but intake were fine. The old head gasket had no signs of failure either.

So it all went back together again with another new head gasket and new spark plugs this time (one cracked taking it out). It started straight away seemed to be running a little smoother and had a little more power but still smoking. Quite a lot of smoke. It's mostly white but maybe with a blue tinge (not sure).

I've fiddled with the carb a bit which makes absolutely no difference to the smoke, so now that's just adjusted by guesswork. Although the cam timing, ignition timing, points gap, valve clearance and spark plug gaps have all been checked and set according to Haynes and Autodata's specs.

Its MoT has now run out so I booked it in to get the carb adjusted properly with an MoT and just hoped they could get it to scrape through but when I got there they couldn't test it (MoT machine broke) but said it would fail anyway on emissions.

On the way back under hard acceleration when I let off the accelerator it made one pop noise and then didn't idle too well afterwards. I did another compression test just now and got 150, 155, 155, 152 psi. Started it up again afterwards and it made another single loud pop after dabbing the throttle slightly.

So I'm guessing the symptoms could still point to worn piston rings but I wanted to be sure before going down that route.

I obviously need to get the carb adjusted properly at some point once I get the underlying problem fixed.

I can't say if the oil level is going down since the valve stem seals were changed as its not driven more than 20 miles due to no MoT.

I would really appreciate any advice. I should probably get a leak down tester but its more expense to my near zero budget.

Thank you in advance and thanks for reading through!

Phil

Edited October 5, 2014 by Bramham89

[Sefton-EP91]

I would say leak down test mate. I know you say there expensive but they give far better results than a compression test. At least this way you you eliminate all aspects!(fingers crossed) Hope this is of some help.

[Bramham89]

Thanks, if there's nothing else I can check I will get one.

[Bramham89]

I managed to find a leak down tester cheap enough and I've tracked down a compressor I can borrow.

I'll post up the results when it arrives, and see if I can make any sense of them.

If it does turn out to be the piston rings would an engine swap be much hassle? I will try track down a 1E but I've seen some 4EFE conversions with a carb but there's no write-ups. They are more easily available and probably cheaper too. I'm looking the quickest, easiest and cheapest option, I don't have any interest in extra power etc.

Cheers

Phil

[Sefton-EP91]

If it does turn out to be the rings then try and source some rings from somewhere is my only suggestion. When you have results post them up. I'm sure it will be something silly

4efte conversion ;) lol

Edited August 27, 2014 by Sefton-EP91

[richdog]

Blocked breather.

[amatthews45]

I would suggest blocked breather also. You done a lot of work to try fix it but sometimes its the simple things

[turbo Grant]

Probably sticky rings

A 4efe carb conversion is dead simple. The engine is a direct fit using the 1e mounts. Use the 1e dizzy. Carb as desired and I'm pretty sure the 1e fuel pump fits on the 4e heads.

[richardc9052]

Just use motorbike carbs and an electronic lift pump with 1e dizzy and coil. Starter, gearbox, flywheel and clutch all fit you'll only have to get the injector holes filled and manifold welded up to current exhaust.

[Bramham89]

I will check the breather hoses tonight if I get chance. Hadn't thought of that, although it did only start after the timing belt failure. Will let you know soon.

4efte would be ace but also costs the price of the car to buy one lol.

I'm guessing plugging the injector holes is just a case of finding a bolt with the correct thread and cutting it down? And if I can't use the mechanical fuel pump a leccy one with a regulator? I already have a cheapo regulator. Any chance of using the old 1e carb? Just to save some pennies, I'm not fussed if it only ends up making the same bhp as the 1e as long as the reliability is good.

[turbo Grant]

If you want to sort it on the cheap and it's the rings causing it to smoke. Just do a re-ring. Will be cheaper than putting a 4e in and you don't really need to take the engine out

[Bramham89]

I've had a look at the breather hoses that I can see.

There's just two on the rocker cover. They seem clear. I can blow through them anyway.

I got the leak down tester today and should have a compressor tomorrow.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Bramham89

[Bramham89]

Is it worth changing the rings without pulling the engine out to have it honed at a shop? I know the bores are silky smooth so it's not gonna help with bedding the new rings in. I'd be willing to try it if it were possible to remove the pistons and reinstall them through the sump but it seems like a bad short-cut to me.

[nEP71n]

Sad... might be ya head

[Stu]

If you give it a big rev up then cover the carb with your hand on decel, does the smoke get worse/better?

Edited August 29, 2014 by Stu

[Bramham89]

@ nEP71n - I've spent a fair bit of time on the head, what exactly do you suggest is wrong with the head?

@ Stu - What does this test do? Not heard of that before :/

[mikey4410]

Its very strange u have smoke but yet compression is good

[Bramham89]

OK, so I attempted my leak down test today, although the tester was playing up so didn't read the percentage of leakage (never returned to 100% and went to way past 0% when it wasn't even connected and blowing air out the end)

The leak down test was done with the engine quite cold unfortunately as I was in a rush and the tester wasn't working right anyway. I made sure each cylinder was at TDC using the crank pulley markings and checking with a cable down the spark plug hole. (1 and 4 done together then 2 and 3)

Despite not having the percentage of leaking, I found where each cylinder was leaking from. The results are as follows:

Cylinder 1 - Leaked quite quickly out the inlet.

Cylinder 2 - Holds the pressure very well, the air whistled slightly from the small breather hole in the rocker cover.

Cylinder 3 - Leaked quite quickly out the exhaust

Cylinder 4 - Leaked quite quickly out the inlet

Also worth noting is that the cylinder 2 spark plug had a small amount of oil/soot on it, these plugs were all new after the stem seals were changed.

So I am fairly sure I've done a crap job of re-grinding the valve seats. As for the oil on spark plug 2 I have no idea. I can only assume that the smoke is related to bad sealing around the valves? Not quite sure how it would cause it though.

I'll see if I can exchange the tester I had for a working one and repeat the test with a hot engine, but I can't imagine the engine temp making a massive difference to the very bad seal on the valves. I'll also check the cam timing again, although it drives too well for me to think its out of time.

The thing that confuses me the most is that the inlet valves had looked to be in good condition with no pitting :/

Edited September 1, 2014 by Bramham89

[Bramham89]

I just started the car up again today to see how bad the smoke was, as I've noticed it less the last time it was driven out the rear view.

It seems that there is barely any smoke at all when it first starts up, even with a little dab on the accelerator. There is however some sooty water dribbling out the back after a bit of a rev.

Once warmed up is when it really starts to smoke, although I am convinced that it is steam. It doesn't have much of a smell to it and I think it only looked the slightest bit blue as it blew over the tarmac. Looks completely white to me on our concrete drive.

What do you think could cause the smoke?

Should I just re-grind the valve seats and stick it in for the MoT? Surely the emissions test will tell me if its oil burning or water/steam?

Edited September 2, 2014 by Bramham89

[aaddzz123]

There's a lot here to read so if I'm honest I've skipped a lot lol. Have you tried a sniff test to see if there is any exhaust gasses in the coolant? When it's warm are the coolant pipes overly pressurised?

It's sounds very much like a head gasket failure to me. Between one of the cylinders and waterway. That said you usually have a slight misfire to go with it. Could also be a cracked head.

Smell your coolant and see if it smells of exhaust gasses, see if any bubbles are going into the overflow bottle, check how hard coolant pipes are when hot, and if it's not obvious by then, get a sniff test done just to be sure. All these signs say that basically exhaust gasses are pressurising the coolant system which means that the coolant system is also going into the engine (which causes white smoke/steam)

Edited September 2, 2014 by aaddzz123

[Bramham89]

I can't smell any gases in the coolant and there were no bubbles coming out of the coolant system. :/

To be honest it is possible that the head gasket has failed I guess, or the head cracked. When I did the leak down test the air coming from the inlet exhaust could be going through an open valve in the adjacent cylinder. Maybe.

I think I'm at the point now where I might just ask the garage to diagnose it for me. Get them to do a proper leak down test and emissions test.

I'm completely clueless right now as there are so many things it could be.

Really reluctant to take it to the garage though, I know they're just gonna empty my bank account in labour fees.

[aaddzz123]

Any chance you could have missed a bent valve?

[karl.]

Why don't you just try a thicker oil if you think it's getting past the valve seals or rings? Something like 25-50 I think it is.

[Stu]

Its been so long since ive worked on a 1e/2e but are the rockers adjustable? Are the valves actually fully closing? If its not shimmed right it might not have enough seat pressure and air is squeezing past the valves? Doesn't explain white smoke thou, that sounds more like a head gasket to me. PK test will tell you.

[Bramham89]

Definitely not a bent valve.

I've put some smoke stop in to thicken the oil and it there may be a slight improvement but it's still smoking.

Still lots of moisture coming from the exhaust but no loss of coolant :|

The rockers are adjustable and all the valve gaps are set.

I may take the head off and check the valve seals properly. Might also stick it in for the mot and just hope for the best. At least I'll find out if it's oil or steam lol.