4efe SWAP to 4efte in Corolla E11 1998

[Frankieflowers]

On 10/27/2020 at 11:19 PM, Sam44 said:

the inlet manifold on the corolla

I heard about this before. Basically keeping my inlet manifold and adding the 4EFTE turbo parts Will make it more efficient. this can be done. I still haven’t found the 4efte engine. Talking to the Irish guys and at the same time to a great shop in Italy who imports Japanese engines. Buy it without gearbox would cost me around €2000  @Calum122 is suggesting to keep my 4efe engine send buy a turbo L modify it without swapping with a 4efte. With the shafts hold the pressure? I read before that the 4efe shafts are too thin compared to the 4EFTE. 

[Sam44]

you will have to get oversized forged pistons and rods and a full acl bottom end bearing kit with thrust washers, uprated valve springs in a reconditioned cylinder head. a full engine gasket kit as well as arp head bolts, a good head gasket, thurbo kit and turbo, with some mods to the original inlet manifold to house the 4efte inlet temp sensor, uprated 4efe paddle clutch, id also buy the c56 gearbox recommended in the previous post by dutchie so at a later date you can get an after market lsd unit as above 190hp lsd will be very handy, but not a necessity.

if you do this I'd send the engine to a engine shop to be built, or get InTouch with tuning developments based in the uk and inquire about a forged engine complete. all they would need to do is fit a e11 corolla oil pump to the engine that houses the crank angle sensor. you might need other parts like the thermostat housing and power steering pump bottom bracket, oil filter housing off the 4efte, injectors, all depending what comes with the engine.

there is a few options. I would highly recommend getting the engine built by a pro engine shop should you choose that directions and carry out a comprehensive engine run in process on low boost with many oil changes.

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Sam44

[Claymore]

12 hours ago, Frankieflowers said:

 @Calum122 is suggesting to keep my 4efe engine send buy a turbo L modify it without swapping with a 4efte. With the shafts hold the pressure? I read before that the 4efe shafts are too thin compared to the 4EFTE. 

Are you talking about connecting rods in the engine (for pistons) or driveshafts from gearbox to wheels?

I think you have 3 options which have been listed here and on other places on the forum.

Turbocharge the 4efe engine that is already in the car. Should be good for 150ps and last an ok amount of time (depending on condition of engine, maintenance etc. Low cost option.

4efte engine swap (with or without gearbox) good for around 220ps assuming the engine is actually any good. Medium cost.

Forge build the 4efe in the car already, High power potential (short life) or 220ps for a long time. High cost, may be difficult to find an engine builder, Will take some time.

You need to decide how much money you want to spend, and what power you are looking for.

[Calum122]

The thing is, these engines are 30 years old. So buy a 4EFTE is no safer than boosting a 4EFE. At the end of the day it's all in the tune.

 

My Mazda MX5 has been turbo'd for 10 years and daily driven and has never skipped a beat. Stock everything engine wise. Uprated Injectors and Piggyback ECU is all that I have on it.

Again, driveshafts snap because of torque not necessarily horsepower. So using software to control torque limit is a great way to get around this problem. I found in my GT that the wheels just lit up most of the time in the lower gears, so limiting torque here until traction can be made isn't limiting the speed of the car.

 

I think paying £1000 for a 30 year old 4EFTE engine of unknown condition, potentially needing to rebuild/forge it anyway when you could have done this to your 4EFE engine.

 

I totally get what you're saying about "Factory Turbo" engines, but if you feel that way buy a factory turbo car and be done with it. The fact of the matter is, you're willing to go modified so you have to deal with the headaches that that comes with.

 

If you want the cheapest option, whilst still maintaining reliability, then I'd turbo your 4EFE engine, limit the power through the mapping at specific RPM/Conditions on a Piggyback ECU.

 

You might find that 130PS is absolutely fine and is just enough power. Drive it like that, and to make that jump to a 4EFTE engine in the future, or reinforce your 4EFE engine.

 

[Sam44]

1 hour ago, Calum122 said:

The thing is, these engines are 30 years old. So buy a 4EFTE is no safer than boosting a 4EFE. At the end of the day it's all in the tune.

 

My Mazda MX5 has been turbo'd for 10 years and daily driven and has never skipped a beat. Stock everything engine wise. Uprated Injectors and Piggyback ECU is all that I have on it.

Again, driveshafts snap because of torque not necessarily horsepower. So using software to control torque limit is a great way to get around this problem. I found in my GT that the wheels just lit up most of the time in the lower gears, so limiting torque here until traction can be made isn't limiting the speed of the car.

 

I think paying £1000 for a 30 year old 4EFTE engine of unknown condition, potentially needing to rebuild/forge it anyway when you could have done this to your 4EFE engine.

 

I totally get what you're saying about "Factory Turbo" engines, but if you feel that way buy a factory turbo car and be done with it. The fact of the matter is, you're willing to go modified so you have to deal with the headaches that that comes with.

 

If you want the cheapest option, whilst still maintaining reliability, then I'd turbo your 4EFE engine, limit the power through the mapping at specific RPM/Conditions on a Piggyback ECU.

 

You might find that 130PS is absolutely fine and is just enough power. Drive it like that, and to make that jump to a 4EFTE engine in the future, or reinforce your 4EFE engine.

 

the mighty mx5 is this the long nose crank engine. these take boost so well. 

mostly all of the best lads in the modifying world are mx5 owners, and on the forums. so so many great people. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Sam44

[Frankieflowers]

1 hour ago, Calum122 said:

You might find that 130PS is absolutely fine and is just enough power. Drive it like that, and to make that jump to a 4EFTE engine in the future, or reinforce your 4EFE engine.

 

I would be more than happy to keep my 4efe engine and overcharge it. If you could kindly give me a list of components I shall buy to make it happen, I will discuss details with my mechanic.

Thank you for your suggestion. It means a lot to me because all I wanna do now is get my 88 hp up to whatever hp I can to drive it every day without headaches. 

[Frankieflowers]

3 hours ago, Claymore said:

You need to decide how much money you want to spend, and what power you are looking for.

Unfortunally my budget is the lowest it can be. So turbo charging my 4EFE would be apparently the cheapest solution? If so, I need to consider the whole turbo kit, manifold and exhaust, ECU or whatever piggyback, intercooler. Is this all I need? Could you help with a list? I need to check brands and prices and I need a “to do list” to be able to discuss it with my mechanic for labor hours.

What are the cost to go 150 PS without opening the engine or either 220 PS and forging the engine for both for long mileage life?

Costs wise  All I know so far is that the 4EFTE engine would cost me at least €2600  shipped to the shop engines are usually around 1000000 km old. The complete exhaust would cost me €850  A custom intercooler would cost at least €400  Labor would be around €1000.

This is what I planned so far. I need to see how much I would save by turbo charging my 4efe 

Thanks

[Sam44]

With the milage that is currently on it i'd recommend doing an engine health check before applying boost pressure. 

1). Compression test across all cylinders.

2). Cylinder leak off test (testing ring seal and valve seal)

3). Cylinder hybrolic test will also test ring seal and in most older engine causes free off sticking piston rings.

4). Oil pressure test. 

5). Crank case pressure test using an monometer. 

6). Engine ems fault code readout and reset. 

I'd replace the crankshaft front main seal and rear main seal upon updating the 4efe standard clutch.

I would also inspect the valve stems through the head inlet and exhaust ports for signs of wet oil, this tells you if the valve stem seals are leaking. like most of the engine seals they will harden and go brittle.

on these the race spec rocker covers help reduce turbo crank case pressure build from blowing oil  past external engine seals, (cam seals, rocker cover seals, dizzy seal, front main and rear main crank seals, sump seal)  

There are again afew options here to boost your 4efe. 

1 of the lads recently has done a very very good turbo convection on a ep91 UK spec 4efe. 

Maybe he could add a list of what he used. 

A different and great aprouch to boosting a 4efe engine. 

Conventional way to convert the 4efe. 

Engine part's required for turbo conversation: 4efte exhaust manifold, oil filter relocation housing 4efte, sump later ep91 4efte the best option low corner surge + matching oil pick up pipe/strainer, turbo with all turbo lines (coolant and oil), 4efte ep91 or ep82 exhaust system and down pipe (decat pipe). 4efte thermostat housing, 4efte flywheel and 212mm clutch or 200mm uprated 4efe unit, 4efte power steering pump with bottom pump to block mounting bracket and bolts, both low pressure pipe from the power steering reservoir and high pressure pipe from the pump to the steering rack 4efte, 4efte rocker cover, heat range 6 spark plugs 4efte. 4efte gray injectors 295cc will see around 220hp, piggy back ems. Intercooler and piping (4efte top mounted intercooler requires the factory bonnet scoop).

ive just been sent this from one of the lads on here.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Sam44

[Frankieflowers]

On 10/30/2020 at 3:32 PM, Sam44 said:

With the milage that is currently on it i'd recommend doing an engine health check before applying boost pressure. 

1). Compression test across all cylinders.

2). Cylinder leak off test (testing ring seal and valve seal)

3). Cylinder hybrolic test will also test ring seal and in most older engine causes free off sticking piston rings.

4). Oil pressure test. 

5). Crank case pressure test using an monometer. 

I'd replace the crankshaft front main seal and rear main seal upon updating the 4efe standard clutch.

I would also inspect the valve stems through the head inlet and exhaust ports for signs of wet oil, this tells you if the valve stem seals are leaking. like most of the engine seals they will harden and go brittle.

on these the race spec rocker covers help reduce turbo crank case pressure build from blowing oil  past external engine seals, (cam seals, rocker cover seals, dizzy seal, front main and rear main crank seals, sump seal)  

There are again afew options here to boost your 4efe. 

1 of the lads recently has done a very very good turbo convection on a ep91 UK spec 4efe. 

Maybe he could add a list of what he used. 

A different and great aprouch to boosting a 4efe engine. 

Conventional way to convert the 4efe. 

Engine part's required for turbo conversation: 4efte exhaust manifold, oil filter relocation housing 4efte, sump later ep91 4efte the best option low corner surge + matching oil pick up pipe/strainer, turbo with all turbo lines (coolant and oil), 4efte ep91 or ep82 exhaust system and down pipe (decat pipe). 4efte thermostat housing, 4efte flywheel and 212mm clutch or 200mm uprated 4efe unit, 4efte power steering pump with bottom pump to block mounting bracket and bolts, both low pressure pipe from the power steering reservoir and high pressure pipe from the pump to the steering rack 4efte, 4efte rocker cover, heat range 6 spark plugs 4efte. 4efte gray injectors 295cc will see around 220hp, piggy back ems. Intercooler and piping (4efte top mounted intercooler requires the factory bonnet scoop).

ive just been sent this from one of the lads on here.

 

 

How much would these 4efte and aftermarket parts cost? I heard they are rare. That’s what scares me. I don’t wanna get stuck. This is probably why they suggested to buy a complete 4EFTE engine. Please let me know if you have sellers who can help with this list. Thanks again.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Frankieflowers

[Sam44]

its upto you personally if I was yourself id get an unopened low mileage 98sepc glanza engine. and go that rout they will do 150hp all day.

but as ive said its your choice.

if you take your time and search on forums you will find all the parts.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Sam44

[Claymore]

On 10/30/2020 at 2:32 PM, Sam44 said:

Engine part's required for turbo conversation: 4efte exhaust manifold, oil filter relocation housing 4efte, sump later ep91 4efte the best option low corner surge + matching oil pick up pipe/strainer, turbo with all turbo lines (coolant and oil), 4efte ep91 or ep82 exhaust system and down pipe (decat pipe). 4efte thermostat housing, 4efte flywheel and 212mm clutch or 200mm uprated 4efe unit, 4efte power steering pump with bottom pump to block mounting bracket and bolts, both low pressure pipe from the power steering reservoir and high pressure pipe from the pump to the steering rack 4efte, 4efte rocker cover, heat range 6 spark plugs 4efte. 4efte gray injectors 295cc will see around 220hp, piggy back ems. Intercooler and piping (4efte top mounted intercooler requires the factory bonnet scoop).

I think 220bhp may be a bit optimistic for a reliable daily driver with a 4efe + t. Especially considering the engine in the car has covered 200k km?

I understand the injectors will flow enough for 220hp with a 255lph walbro but I wouldn't recommend tuning a 4efe + t to that power level.

Also need to add an air filter and pipework and 255lph walbro fuel pump to the list above.

Bonus is that the corolla engine has a knock sensor as standard:

 

The only other thing is the power steering pump on the corolla has the air control valve on the pump whereas the starlet has it on the steering rack instead so this feature will be lost.

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Claymore

[Sam44]

Yeh very much agreed the 4efe will probably need engines seals like valve stem seals. 

And again the knock control is very very much recommended for higher compression engines like the 4efe. This was why high load ACL bigend bearings were recommended to me straight away while doing the 4efe+t conversion. As well as running it on higher octane fuel. Which you will find will cost you more over a long period of time. 

The ep82 and ep91 nock control does only operate in the lowwer rpm range. so im hoping the later and faster ems on the e11 4efe does a better job 

These are all reasons why for the money and limited experience I'd go for the 4efte complete. 

The 220hp is reference to the injector limit not engine limit around 160hp is what the tunning shops get on turboed 4efe with a long life expectancy. 

Cheers again claymore I'll edit the list now. List has been updated on the build thread.

I've also added the oil filter housing main large hollow center bolt and sealing washer.

Yeh the original power steering pump I've recommended keeping. You can remove some of the lower 4efte lower bracket and make a joining bracket to fit. I've also been told the lowwer mount on the E11 power steering pump can be removed and a new bracket fabricated to fit to the 4efte lower mount. This mount is needed to clear the offset 4efte oil filter housing & oil filter. 

The other option here is to design the turbo oil feed and supply like how the lad in the video above has done this will not affect the power steering pump. 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Sam44

[Claymore]

Personally I'd get the engine health checked as you described and if ok then aim for 150ps 4efe+t build but that's what I'm building as a project so I may be biased.

Will be interesting to see the bhp figures on Stevie82 and my builds when complete, we are pretty much building to the same specs although Stevie may be a bit more secretive with his as his is a competition car  (totally understandable ). My engine only has 42k miles on it so should be healthy!

Quite a lot of turbo parts on eBay in the uk recently with higher than average prices though, but parts may be more difficult to find in Italy.

It's Frankie's choice now.

[Claymore]

16 minutes ago, Sam44 said:

The 220hp is reference to the injector limit not engine limit around 160hp is what the tunning shops get on turboed 4efe with a long life expectancy. 

Thought that's what you meant. Best to clarify on the forum though as we don't want people asking for 220bhp! Rods out please dyno man! 

All the professional tuners I've spoken to and historical builds seem to aim for the 160bhp mark 4efe+t.

[Sam44]

5 minutes ago, Claymore said:

Personally I'd get the engine health checked as you described and if ok then aim for 150ps 4efe+t build but that's what I'm building as a project so I may be biased.

Will be interesting to see the bhp figures on Stevie82 and my builds when complete, we are pretty much building to the same specs although Stevie may be a bit more secretive with his as his is a competition car  (totally understandable ). My engine only has 42k miles on it so should be healthy!

Quite a lot of turbo parts on eBay in the uk recently with higher than average prices though, but parts may be more difficult to find in Italy.

It's Frankie's choice now.

Yeh some great builds happening on here just at present so alot of help and experience to do a 4efe+t. 

Id recommend running a bigger turbo like td04l or tfo35 on the E11 4efe if this is the option chosen. The reason is they will deliver 150hp at lowwer safer boost pressure for the engine. 

With this you will need the turbo fit to support/house these turbos comprising of exhaust manifold, decat pipe, water lines oil lines and bolts. And aftermarket air filter and piping. 

[Sam44]

3 hours ago, Claymore said:

Thought that's what you meant. Best to clarify on the forum though as we don't want people asking for 220bhp! Rods out please dyno man! 

All the professional tuners I've spoken to and historical builds seem to aim for the 160bhp mark 4efe+t.

Yeh defo understand that. I would hate to see any 4efe builds wasting a perfectly good 4efe engine. 

These engines if driven right and looked after will last at 150hp. From the engines I've pulled down so far the internal wear is very low the highest milage engine being a 130kmile unit. The main problems I could find was carboned up piston rings (sticking rings), and valve stem seals leaking due to age, as well as front and rear crank main seals.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Sam44

[Sam44]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TD04-Turbo-Exhaust-Manifold-Decat-Pipe-for-Toyota-EP82-EP91-4EFTE-Starlet-Glanza/113866497622?hash=item1a82f8de56:g:gwQAAOSwz71ZTMAK&redirect=mobile

This kit is an absolutely incredible deal. Just make sure to have good strong bracing in place to the engine block and a good big in length exhaust Flexi, as well as use all the original exhaust to body mounting points. This helps stop cracking of the manifold which I believe is common. 

From what I've been told this design/make of kit in mild steel provides great power and lasts (does not crack) but again as in the previous post above you will need to modify the turbo down/decat pipe to clear the corrola front engine mount and front to back engine mounts support bar. 3x well known starlet tunning shops told me this kit makes very good power. 

The stainless steel kit requires the turbo and decat bracing to the engine block to last and not crack. This will require additional braces to be fabricated with 1 being weilded to the decat. 

The power/pull/torque difference from a ct9 to the td04l is alot, very noticeable helping hit higher speeds 40 to 100mph faster. 

Additional areas of benafits will be mpg due to the tdo4l not providing boost pressure till around 3500rpm on a 4efte, also hitting target speed sooner (on throttle time reduced). on the corrola 4efe with the original inlet you will be at 3000rpm when the tdo4l will start to deliver boost.. This is just after Cruz conditions (what this means is you don't see boost till the point your most likely to need it, also helping traction. 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Sam44

[Frankieflowers]

I’m loving this topic because more people are sharing their experience. The two down points are my lack of experience and the fact that I am not in the UK. This said I want to tell you all that my 4EFE engine has 230,000 km. @Sam404 told me right away that the best option was to get a complete 4EFTE engine with ECU and swap it with my 4EFE that I would use for spare parts during the conversion. For instance the Inlet to be adapted to the 4efte turbo and of course a front IC. My goal is to have more horsepower but not a race car. I want to be able to drive it every day. This said I read all your posts and with all the technical and precious information I still don’t know which option will be cheaper for me. If you could kindly give me a small list with the total price for the parts I need to buy, I would be able to decide what to do. Realistically I already saved around €2000. I don’t think this is enough to add a turbo to my refe with piggy back ECU and all the 4efte components plus pistons and valve regeneration. All I know is that a 4efte with at least 80,000 km would cost me €2600/2800. On top of that I would have to spend an extra €800 for the custom exhaust, plus fuel pump, water pump etc. that would be around more or less €1000. Plus €1000 for labor. As soon as I can understand the total costs I will proceed. I really want to make this happen and be the first in Italy to have a Turborolla rocking the streets! Thank you guys! ❤️

[Sam44]

just out of interest how much could you get a used low mileage 4efe engine for.

in the video above ep80 turboed, we see a different approach to installing a turbo to a 4e engine.

this means that not as many original 4efte parts are required also the power steering on the e11 would not require modifying. a simpler build to do, with parts being made from your local hydraulic hose repair shop (turbo feed pipe and return). 

the same approach stevei82 used to turbo his 4efe ep91 uk starlet, he might give you a run down on what he used if you message him on here, the link to his build is above.

with the new use of what is know as the race spec rocker cover & catch can used a lot on the starlet builds you could sit your e11 at a commutable 130hp for now really quite easily on a tdo4l like in the kit above. your original clutch might hold up. id put the uprated corolla clutch (stage 2 clutch) in there for good measure, as well as a adjustable hks actuator so you can set the boost pressure right. 

the only worry I have with this approach is the volume of oil supplied to the turbo unit as well as the affects on the volumes delivered to the crank. I would up the oil pressure/volume if I used this method, with the simple washer in the oil relief valve, as well as making sure the turbo oil delivery pipe has the correct restriction diameter to not affect engine oil pressure and still maintain good delivery to the turbo.   

ill message the young lad that did the ep82 in the video link above I can see he will have been running this for awhile now, see if he has had any problems. 

you could then pick up a low mileage 4efe and get it sorted over a period of time ready to just drop in, and take more power.

the interesting thing here is you can skim down the 4efe piston crowns to the 4efte compression with out any loss in strength. infact this will make the pistons lighter and able you to increase the stock rpm limit to the 4efte limit. the only other difference is the inlet cam and the valve springs are stronger for the higher rpm limit. ive been told to use acl high load bigends on this engine going near 170hp and past. which I think tunning developments uk sell for around £55.

this engine would take 190hp all day long. a very respectable and hard to beat car.   

 

 

 

 

   

Edited November 2, 2020 by Sam44

[Frankieflowers]

54 minutes ago, Sam44 said:

ill message the young lad that did the ep82 in the video link above I can see he will have been running this for awhile now, see if he has had any problems. 

 

Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I just went to speak to my mechanic and he said that it is hard to find a 4efe with low mileage and it would cost at least €2000 to open mine to regenerate cylinders and put new pistons. He also asked if the shafts would be strong enough with the turbo. What kind of head gaskets would be needed to have the correct compression? He asked me if the 4EFTE version has thicker shafts and crank shaft. The cost of the turbo and the manifold plus all the extras for 4efte parts plus labor would raise the price. He thinks that it would be cheaper to buy the complete 4EFTE engine and work around it for the swap. This, in order to make it work for a daily use around 180 hp. As soon as we can figure this out the other option and costs I will decide and start buying whatever is needed. Thanks for your help!

[Sam44]

Yeh your drive shafts and crank will take the power considering that they are in good condition ( CV joints). 

And yeh there's no real short cuts to achieve reliable figures above around 130hp on your high milage engine. This power would feel very good. 

Your compression ratio will be good for upto 160hp on the tdo4l turbo and kit. The only thing in question is the health of the engine. If mapped in on a piggy back or standalone ems control unit by a good tuner.

As far as head gaskets go these engines develop problems with head gaskets as soon as the factory engine is opened. The recommended head gaskets are to use the Toyota original brand or Victor rinze. 

In my opinion this shows a problem with the after manufacturing head gasket replacement procedure and a clear difference in the manufacturing build processes in this area. 

I'm of the opinion my self to get a good 4efte engine and work round it for 150 to 190hp. 

Another question: what rating is the fuel you use?

Edited November 2, 2020 by Sam44

[Frankieflowers]

2 hours ago, Sam44 said:

Another question: what rating is the fuel you use?

I totally understand. I’m still waiting on a 4efte with low millage. Gas stations don’t have rating here. I used Shell V/Power for a while. Highest rating here. Otherwise 4 star I guess. Total, Shell, Esso and the other big brands. 

[Frankieflowers]

4 hours ago, Sam44 said:

just out of interest how much could you get a used low mileage 4efe engine for.

Maybe €700/800. If you find one...

[Sam44]

Over here we can get 4efe engines on eBay for around £350gbp. 

I recon I could build a good 4efte equivalent out of a 4efe for around £1300 reconditioned+import tax your end.  

With a ACL bigend set and 4efte valve spring new stem seals and skimmed pistons to match the 4efte compression ratio.

The only thing is it would not be ready till around April next year. 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Sam44

[Sam44]

Just at present I'm looking for a E11 4efe corrola to utilise the faster engine ECU with ignition system. If I can find a low milage example this could work out nice. 

It would just be the bear block and cylinder head complete. For that price I will fit turbo valve springs and cams. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Sam44